Right, but because of how inefficient it is at those frequencies, you're actually beating it to death even though it's not loud. Try it full range just for the heck of it and see how much louder it is.
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Blew my 12".....AGAIN!!!!!
- Thread starter pb9717
- Start date
What are your acutal tonal goals, OP? It sounds like you want good response from 50Hz to 10KHz+?
It's way more about the cabinet design and the specific 12" to go with it. After that, it is getting the relative volume of that low end to your ears. You have got a lot of high end going on there and are probably turning that single 12 up a lot more than you think to try to compete.
Have you tried running your rig upside down? Put the 8's near the ground and the low end near your ears. Sound different? What about raising the whole lot up?
How does the rig sound out the front to the punters? Can you deal with not having a lot of low end in your stage sound if it is sounding good out front?
It's a sweep able crossover. I can raise it to 200, 300, whatever. From my experience with it, the Ampeg handled everything above 100Hz really well, efficient, clear...nice. So that's where I kept it. The low freq cab is really just for that, only lows. So I never thought to raise the crossover point. Likely, because the avatar cab/driver simply isn't designed to be that type of cab, I've experienced this issue....ideally, a little cab that can produce clear, moderately loud, frequencies 100hz and below is my goal. If I did raise the crossover point, the shortcomings of the avatar would be more apparent.
The high passing I mentioned is to eliminate frequencies below what the Avatar is designed to produce. If the cabinet is tuned to about 54 hz as suggested earlier, you shouldn't push lower frequencies through the cab. IE HPF filter is set at about 50 hz.
One of these and couple of RCA to 1/4 adapters inline with your low pass section would probably get you pretty close. "Harrison Labs FMOD Inline Crossover Pair 50 Hz High Pass RCA" from www.parts-express.com!
If you retune the Avatar to have a lower cut off, Fmods also come in 30 and 20 hz HPF. Here's an old talkbass thread. FMOD High Pass Filters - Where to run them?
A better and more expensive HPF would be the FDeck preamp or something similar.
The BX1500 crossover is variable from 100 hz to 2 khz...I totally agree 100 hz is too low given the OP's speakers. I had a pair of custom boxes tuned to 40 hz made for some JBL 2206s. If I cross them at 100 hz with a pair of EV SX300s I can't even tell the JBLs are on unless I give them 6-9 db of boost over the EVs. They have far more impact when crossed at a higher frequency.
yes, I've flipped it. Sounds lousy. A bunch of woofy bass in my face and my clear, midrangy sound bouncing off the floor. Terrible.
As far as how others find the sound. I've had multiple guitar players say it's the best bass sound they've ever heard. ( cause it's sooo clear, and not too loud. ) And to not a lot of low end...it's just when that B string starts goin that woofer starts rattling, and before you know it...it's over. Eminance kappa Bye Bye.
NOW we're talking! Raise it to 200 ish and I'll bet the whole rig works a lot better.
Maybe I'm Over simplifying, but what I look for, and have always gotten ( until the low end blows) is the great sound of that Carvin BX1500 thru that Ampeg. It's just wonderful. The only shortcoming is what the Ampeg simply can't do, and thats clean, clear, frequencies below 100hz When I turn up the avatar, it's just like turning up your sub setting on a 2.1 system, It just fills up beautifully. And I make a point not to overdo it. Just enough volume to compliment the Ampeg. But as the night goes on, and the volume creeps up slightly, and the 5 string is goin, you start to hear the kappa popping, over excursions, and before you know it,we're onto the next driver.
I havn't done the math But I think 4 10's can beat a 15. It's all just surface area and the multiple 10's ability to move more air. I read that it would take 3 15's to equal the air movement of an 810 cab. The 10's start and stop moving much quicker (transient attack?) which is why they sound so much tighter than an 18.
- Feb 12, 2006
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- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
May I suggest that you just don't have enough rig for the gig?
The math is pretty simple actually... Knowing the SPL sensitivity at 1 watt/1meter at the lowest frequency you intend to reproduce, then extrapolate to the safe power handling of the speaker (using the RMS or continuous rating, not the program or peak rating) if the resulting number is less than your needed SPL at whatever distance you need it at then you do not have enough rig to accomplish what you hope.
These are exactly the calculations used when determining how much PA is needed in a touring rig to get the job done acceptably.
I suspect that you are WAY off in the ability of any 112 to meet your needs.
The math is pretty simple actually... Knowing the SPL sensitivity at 1 watt/1meter at the lowest frequency you intend to reproduce, then extrapolate to the safe power handling of the speaker (using the RMS or continuous rating, not the program or peak rating) if the resulting number is less than your needed SPL at whatever distance you need it at then you do not have enough rig to accomplish what you hope.
These are exactly the calculations used when determining how much PA is needed in a touring rig to get the job done acceptably.
I suspect that you are WAY off in the ability of any 112 to meet your needs.
Don't forget excursion. Gotta have that too. Some 10's blow away some 15's. Also there's no quicker/slower. Just not real. If it was, the big speakers would play flat as you go up the neck. : D
I would get a used Theil cab with a EVM15B in it. They have been around forever, kick ass and are dirt cheap. I've had 2 with no probs for 20 yrs, and they are more than loud enough.
I was using 1:1 comparisons, because people keep insisting that driver size doesn't matter, when clearly it does.
All things being equal (tuned cabinets, matching cone excursion, quality of drivers), a single 18" will drive lower than a single 15", which will drive lower than a single 12", etc.
I also agree that transient attacks are tighter as the driver gets smaller. It's why a 1" tweeter is so efficient at its job.
But this "all a speaker size tells is its size" nonsense needs to stop.
I'd love to try a Phil Jones cab with the 5 inch drivers. He claims to reproduce low b's and double basses amazingly. I have always loved my oldschool TL cab witht the evm15b. Use one or two if necessary. I have a 69 B15 with the original square magnet speaker that doesn't look like much but it's fairly loud. I can easily piss off my neighbours with it.
It matters for overall volume. You'll need more little ones to go as loud as a similar large one. But little ones can go just as low. Headphones go low, right? As far as attack is concerned, not buying it. My 15" cab sounds punchier and more immediate than my 410. But this is due to cab tuning.
A wall of 5" drivers, is nothing but a different way to move the same amount of air, as far fewer 15" or 18" drivers.
I believe the multiple 10" cabinets are the 'sweet spot' for bass cabinets, and that is where the R&D money lands, with various configurations (2X10, 4X10, 6X10 and 8X10) cabinets, both sealed and vented.
They have the 'look' and sound, along with a size that doesn't require a ridiculous number of drivers to reproduce the frequencies we need.
I believe the multiple 10" cabinets are the 'sweet spot' for bass cabinets, and that is where the R&D money lands, with various configurations (2X10, 4X10, 6X10 and 8X10) cabinets, both sealed and vented.
They have the 'look' and sound, along with a size that doesn't require a ridiculous number of drivers to reproduce the frequencies we need.
Some headphones can, and it certainly took manufacturers long enough to realize that what people wanted.
Exactly. It's about the amount of air you can move.
And given the same excursions, a larger driver will ALWAYS move more air, and will do so with more efficiency.
