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body wood does matter

A difference through an amp that is noticeable by listeners (musicians, if you prefer. I'm not claiming there is no difference. I'm asking for the tests that are so easy to make, according to several people here, and the evidence.

Alright, and how would you design this test? The same everything on different same shaped bodies made of different materials, then having a machine pluck the strings, and people A/B to what they think they're listening to, and figuring out if they can prove their confidence and hit above, say, 95% of it right? They would not need to identify which type of wood or material the body is made of, just to consistently tell apart two or more different same shaped bodies made of different materials. And afterwards, they need to provide their opinion that the difference is or is not significant? Does this kind of a test sound fair? It can be double blind too, with samples that are recorded but then labelled in a way that the examiner can't tell without looking into it.

There will always be one more piece of wood that hasn't been tested.

In this case, yes, you cannot prove a negative because the system is too broad to completely explore, but I was making a point that "you can't prove a negative" is, ironically, demonstrably wrong.
 
Alright, and how would you design this test? The same everything on different same shaped bodies made of different materials, then having a machine pluck the strings, and people A/B to what they think they're listening to, and figuring out if they can prove their confidence and hit above, say, 95% of it right? They would not need to identify which type of wood or material the body is made of, just to consistently tell apart two or more different same shaped bodies made of different materials. And afterwards, they need to provide their opinion that the difference is or is not significant? Does this kind of a test sound fair? It can be double blind too, with samples that are recorded but then labelled in a way that the examiner can't tell without looking into it.
I'm not claiming it's easy, a lot of people here do. But they just won't do it, for some reason.

In this case, yes, you cannot prove a negative because the system is too broad to completely explore, but I was making a point that "you can't prove a negative" is, ironically, demonstrably wrong.
Let's assume that we're talking about this case, without having to specify it every time, ok?
 
The aspect about construction of basses that gets convoluted into this supposed “argument,” and tends to cause disagreement lies in the context of a particular player’s perspective.

Let’s take Carol Kaye, who purportedly just traded in her P basses against another one when the strings wore out. If she actually just took the next one off the rack in the shop and was perfectly happy with it, then you could argue that whatever variation was going on from P Bass to P Bass did not matter to her; and thus, that variation in materials of construction essentially yielded the same result for her.

But, just suppose Fender had offered the P bass with an aluminum neck. In that case, Ms Kaye might have tried it and decided she liked the wood neck bass better. Then, she would have continued her non-selective instrument swaps with the wood necked basses. In such a case, the materials of construction would have mattered; but, only for a particular discriminant.

It’s perfectly valid for a given player to discount certain instrument variables. In the extreme, a player might be able to completely discount all variables in construction, and just order up any old bass on line. I suppose they all sound “like a bass,” as my wife is fond of saying. Such a player could legitimately claim the materials of construction don’t matter to them. There may be some of those out there. But, we don’t hear from or about them very often.

More commonly, players have preferences, which are not entirely just variations in pickups and preamps. I suppose one could entertain “deep” discussions about the differences between “feel” and “tone;” but, really, what’s the point of that? And bringing the Scientific Method into the discussion certainly won’t help that discussion.

Peeps have prefs. QED. LOL.:cool:;):)
 
That’s actually a pretty good test, though I found the differences MUCH more audible in the high ranges than the low. Is that how other people hear it? I’m listening through my crappy little iPhone speaker. The lack of any description or any photos of the setup and methodology leaves it a little anecdotal, which is enough for sceptics to discount it, I guess.
 
From what little I remember of my high school science about experimental methodology, it’s pretty hard to set up a true blind test. Even if somebody went through all the effort, you still can’t control for how the interested audience hears the examples, via what kind and quality of internet connection, through what speakers or headphones, into ears with what age or genetic limitations, etc. Would anybody be convinced by a chart of comparitive wave forms to eliminate all the listening variables? I really doubt it. I thinks it’s nearly insoluable , which leaves me biased towards trusting the judgement of experienced builders over all the armchair geniuses (like me!).


Since I have college physics background (including some acoustic science) I have a bit of experience designing experiments. I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be running an experiment soon to test the exact question this thread is about. I'll post a new thread when I'm ready to start the project.

Spoiler alert: I will make multiple sound clips available which can be easily loaded into music players (hardware or software) and compared side by side. The "blind" part of the test is where the clips will not be identified by wood type but only arbitrary labels. (A, B, C - J, K, L - X, Y, Z. etc...) TalkBass members can try to tell the difference between clips.

The test will be to see if anyone can match the clips that share the same wood species with each other. It won't be necessary to actually identify the wood species. Just be able to tell that there is a difference and then match same tones together. If this can be accomplished more often than random chance would allow, then it supports the hypothesis that wood matters to tone.
 
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This is a link to some vibration analysis carried out on solid body electric bass guitars. The research was specifically concerned with dead spots, but does address how the structure of the guitar affects string vibration (the section on damping). It's a rather dry read, but it does prove that string vibration i.e. sustain is affected by the supporting structure. It also refers to attenuation of specific frequencies which of course would influence tone. So this is proper research proving that the body material affects sustain and tone.

Invalid Link Removed


Thanks for posting this. I really learned a lot reading it.

I noticed that the acoustic scientist Thomas Rossing is referenced in the article. His book, "The Science of Sound", is widely regarded as the leading textbook in the field. I was very lucky to have taken Professor Rossing's class at NIU where he taught and it was one of the most informative classes I've taken on any subject. I still have the textbook and refer to it often.
 
I already have. Many, many times.

How about this: Here's thread here on TalkBass, written by another Luthier, MPU in Finland, who I've never met. He was curious about all the things I've written about here on TB, about bass structures and how to modify them to improve the sound. Someone came up with the cute name of calling these modifications Brucification. So, he designed and built a bass with my guidance. He documents the whole process, and describes the results. Again, I've never met him. I only talked him through the technical details here online. He's making his own observations and judgements.

Headless four string ”Brucefied”

And, there are others.


That was a fascinating read. Thanks for linking.

Bruce, do you mean to say that G&L does something similar with their bodies - like creating slotted, hollow areas in the body to "soften" the wood and alter the way it vibrates?
 
Also, yes, you absolutely can prove a negative under certain conditions. For example, if the entirety of the system is known with all the parameters. If it's a closed system with few parameters, proving a negative is a breeze!

For example, rolling three die and claiming "there's no 2 rolled among them", since you know which three numbers came up, you would be able to claim this with 100% certainty.

You're not proving a negative with your example. You’re reporting on an observed static phenomenon as in an observable and verifiable factual occurrence.

In a closed system with known parameters (i.e. there are three standard six sided dice with the numbers 1 through 6 represented by patterned dots on the same faces of each die relative to the position of numbers) you can’t prove a negative because there aren’t any (i.e. roll a 19) because you’d need to introduce a factor or variable outside the system in order to encounter it.

However, within the system you can accurately calculate stastistical probabilities - or odds. Even the extremely unlikely occurrence of all three dice simultaneously landing and sticking on a corner point (so there’s no numeric roll outcome) can be factored for.

When testing samples there’s always one more piece to test. So the way to get around testing everything out to infinity - which is the only place where you can have absolute certitude since every possible outcome is known because it already happened - you need to determine the size of your sample batch to be reasonably sure that the sample accurately represents every single member in the set you’re testing, such that you can establish a very strong statistical correlation (or confidence in your conclusions) to offer it as a true and accurate statement of fact.

And there are mathematical tools that let you calculate how big your sample size needs to be. Most times it needs to be a lot larger than you’d think it would.

So here’s the thing…from a scientific perspective, maybe the body wood on a slab type solidbody instrument has a major effect on tone. There’s lots of anecdotal evidence to suggest it does. And lots to suggest its role is extremely minor (as in all three dice stabding in their corners) to the point of being immaterial.

Luthiers, collectors, dealers, owners of certain instruments, and those who believe in the various assertions that fall under the collective label “tonewood” have a vested (i.e. financial and ego) interest in believing it to be true.

Those of us more curious about the how and why of body wood vis-a-vis slab type solidbody instruments have a different perspective.

The first group is interested in what seems to work. And to be a little blunt, what sells. The second group is focused on why it (supposedly) works. There’s no need for hurt feelings or heat unless you’re the sort of person who doesn’t like to have your statements questioned.

So if I asked a luthier why a certain bass sounded so good and he or she said “I think it has a lot to do with the piece of mahogany that I salvaged from an antique piece of furniture and used for the body.” I’d be perfectly good with that answer. If they said “It’s because of tge superior sonic qualities of 300 year old mahogany.”

I’d be a little less happy with the non-explanation. Especially if they immediately came back (as some have) with something like: “When you’ve built as many instruments as I have for as long as I have, or maybe knew jack about wood, you wouldn’t be asking that question. I’m telling you that 300 year old mahagony is the bomb - and maybe if you could afford a really fine instrument like I build, you’d know that. Maybe you’d better get your hearing tested.” (I have gotten that answer from a builder BTW.)

Unfortunately, too many times, the answers I’ve gotten back when I’ve asked: “How can you possibly know that to be true?” have boiled down to someone saying “Because I just know - and you don’t.”

That may be so. But that’s not an explanation. And it’s definitely not science.
 
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I have. Many, many times. I've built side-by-side basses, all exactly the same except for some features of body chambering or neck structure. Tested them side-by-side through the same amp. Had musician friends over to try them out too, and give me their opinions. I've experimented with different types of neck construction and internal body structures, as well as different wood species. I can clearly feel differences in how the basses vibrate in my hands and in how they sound out through the amp. I've experimented with all kinds of details of the structures of electric basses, trying to understand how they affect or don't affect the final sound.

Over the years, I've also worked directly with around 20 other pro Luthiers, helping them with the internal structures of their instruments, to improve the sound. We've tried different things and found ways to modify the sound in the directions that they wanted. We also found things that didn't make any difference, or went the wrong way. None of them have concluded that the frame of the instrument has nothing to do with the sound. They've heard the results for themselves, on the instruments they are building.

I really am an expert at this subject. I've been a pro Luthier for 25 years, and most of my R & D efforts have been with instrument structures. I build my own line of Scroll Basses, which are the summation of my development work. And I supply engineering services, neck structures, truss rods, custom hardware and pickups to other Luthiers. I've built well over a thousand instrument necks, all custom order, all sizes and types of construction. I've also been developing and building specialty pickups for 12 years. That's what I do here. Before I became a Luthier as my "retirement" business, I was a corporate R & D engineer at some cool big companies. I'm a degreed mechanical engineer, and a long time machinist and woodworker.

I don't write papers and submit them to journals. I don't have time for that. I'm not on some university research grant. This is private industry R & D, and I'm experimenting to make better products to build and sell. The proof of my R & D work is in my products, and the products of my clients. I write extensively here on TB for my own enjoyment. I love doing R & D, being a craftsman, teaching and writing. I enjoy helping bass owners understand the mysterious technical stuff that goes into building their instruments.

I don't understand why some of you so stubbornly stick to this idea that an electric bass is an inert slab of wood with pickups and strings. That the sound is completely created by the pickups and strings. That the only reason a Fender, Gibson, Rickenbacker, Alembic, Smith, Steinberger, and Hofner sound different is the pickups??? Oh, come on. The sound of an electric bass is a lot more complicated than the pickups. Why is it so hard to accept that the wood frame plays a part too?
I have to agree with Bruce on this matter. He's been a pro luthier for 25 years, and as a tech I have been at it for an additional 25, and I am sure about the differences body woods, neck woods and fingerboard woods make. It's true that the most obvious differences in sound come from the pickup and string choices, but that's not the whole story. If to were, my Fender Jazz with a Sadowsky preamp and Sadowsky pickups and the same strings would sound just like my NYC Sadowsky. That's not the case. And every member of every band I play in, every recording engineer I have ever worked with, would confirm that.
 
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Science always starts with assumptions.

For example, Einstein's special theory of relativity begins with the assumption that the laws of nature are the same everywhere in the universe.

Starts with a working hypothesis you mean. That’s not the same thing as an assumption. An assumption presumes some degree of truth - as in “we hold these truths to be self evident.” A working hypothesis makes no such assumptions. It states what is intended to be proven.

Einstein’s working hypothesis acknowledged that in order for the special theory of relativity to be valid, it must be true under all circumstances. So he first sets a very high bar and then goes on to establish his proofs.

His special theory, first published in 1905, has also been thoroughly vetted and born out by experimental testing of his “thought experiments” and mathematics as the technology and opportunities became available. So it’s in an entirely different league from what we’re talking about here.
 
Since I have college physics background (including some acoustic science) I have a bit of experience designing experiments. I mentioned in an earlier post that I will be running an experiment soon to test the exact question this thread is about. I'll post a new thread when I'm ready to start the project.

Spoiler alert: I will make multiple sound clips available which can be easily loaded into music players (hardware or software) and compared side by side. The "blind" part of the test is where the clips will not be identified by wood type but only arbitrary labels. (A, B, C - J, K, L - X, Y, Z. etc...) TalkBass members can try to tell the difference between clips.

The test will be to see if anyone can match the clips that share the same wood species with each other. It won't be necessary to actually identify the wood species. Just be able to tell that there is a difference and then match same tones together. If this can be accomplished more often than random chance would allow, then it supports the hypothesis that wood matters to tone.
I already see where this is going: "Well, I can hear the difference in my instruments, so that doesn't prove anything!". (But still, great if you go through the trouble, then we're maybe one step closer).
 
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Starts with a working hypothesis you mean. That’s not the same thing as an assumption. An assumption presumes some degree of truth - as in “we hold these truths to be self evident.” A working hypothesis makes no such assumptions. It states what is intended to be proven.

Einstein’s working hypothesis acknowledged that in order for the special theory of relativity to be valid, it must be true under all circumstances. So he first sets a very high bar and then goes on to establish his proofs.

His special theory, first published in 1905, has also been thoroughly vetted and born out by experimental testing of his “thought experiments” and mathematics as the technology and opportunities became available. So it’s in an entirely different league from what we’re talking about here.

Look, I don't want to derail this thread but your assertion about science not making assumptions is just 100% wrong. I know that science is necessarily based on assumptions because that was my field of study for 4 years.

But don't take my word for it. Check out this article:

. . . all scientific tests involve making assumptions . . .

Making assumptions
 
I already see where this is going: "Well, I can hear the difference in my instruments, so that doesn't prove anything!".


My post was in response to another poster who claimed that a legitimate scientific test couldn't be easily designed because there is no way to eliminate subjectivity. I disagreed with him and tried to explain how I would design an objective "blind" test. The only reason I mentioned my college physics background is because that educational experience taught me a lot about the methodology of scientific experiments.

I actually went out of my way to further explain that I would refrain from drawing any conclusions myself, but would simply make the data available to the TalkBass community so that everyone could draw their own conclusions.

But the critical part of such an experiment is that it really does need to be objective. If properly designed, this experiment will provide data that will allow listeners to discern differences in wood more frequently than chance would allow - which would support the tone wood hypothesis, or else there wouldn't be any audible difference demonstrated by TB members - many of whom are very motivated to succeed.
 
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You're assuming too much. My post was in response to another poster who claimed that a legitimate scientific test couldn't be easily designed because there is no way to eliminate subjectivity. I disagreed with him and tried to explain how I would design an objective "blind" test. The only reason I mentioned my college physics background is because that educational experience taught me a lot about the methodology of scientific experiments.

I actually went out of my way to further explain that I would refrain from drawing any conclusions myself, but would simply make the data available to the TalkBass community so that everyone could draw their own conclusions.
I wasn't refering to you, but to the general crowd here. (Added one sentence to my original post).
 
Look, I don't want to derail this thread but your assertion about science not making assumptions is just 100% wrong. I know that science is necessarily based on assumptions because that was my field of study for 4 years.

But don't take my word for it. Check out this article:



Making assumptions

My share of study too. (S.O’s mother was also a scientist (research chemist). So I had a lot of long discussions on research methodology with her. She was very precise in her use of words and some of that has carried over. ) I will read the link you posted. And thank you for that. But you’re right, maybe it’s best we get off this as it is a derail and it’s already running too long. Not to mention taking up a lot of typing on my noncooperative phone’s touchscreen and wacky spellcheck.

Welcome and well met! :thumbsup::)
 
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