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body wood does matter
- Thread starter Killed_by_Death
- Start date
I propose something similar to this string comparison experiment I did in 2009:
Sound clips - FLATS (DR, La Bella, Rotosound)
Making sound clips this way virtually eliminates any differences in playing. I can send you the samples (I still have them) and you can hear for yourself. The sound clips are pretty much indistinguishable from each other and the only difference in sound is entirely due to the strings.
So, I would record nearly identical samples of playing using different body woods but keeping everything else absolutely identical. The neck, bridge, pickups, electronics, and strings would all be transferred from one bass to another.
I would then make the sound clips available to the TalkBass community and ask everyone to try to identify the wood used in each sample - or at least see if there was any audible difference in tone. I can make some extremely hi-fidelity recordings and if they're played back on a good sound system or some decent studio headphones, if there is any significant difference at all, then we should be able to hear it and identify it.
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I find that on here, and on other guitar/instrument forums, many (not most, or all) people claim that there is NO effect on sound from the wood on an electric instrument, and a few have stated that in this thread and every other "tone wood" thread ever posted. That is what ruffles the feathers of those that have decades of knowledge and experience hinting otherwise.
Bruce has built more instruments than most of us have played. I trust his knowledge and experience. But being a Monday morning quarterback is much more fun.
Just so you know, science doesn’t deal in assumptions.
I know that, but when you are sitting in the back room of a used/vintage store with customers jawing for hours about their next build you start to glaze over.
I started insisting these guys bring me pizza or buckets of fried chicken while we benchraced their next build.
Many times I pointed so some failed experiment we had in in a 96-gal trash can.
I was young, I needed the calories, so someone pays I build.
I don’t think anyone would claim that all bodies and necks sound the same. It’s the notion that people obsess over the nominal species rather than the specific qualities of that instrument.
How many instruments have you built or swapped wood/pickups on? We want practical experience instead of postulating.
I'm not doubting you or suggesting that you aren't hearing things correctly, or anything like that. Those basses that you've built probably do sound nearly identical. I believe you on that.
Here's the thing: I'll bet that those 6 (or whatever) bodies that you used are all very stiff, solid construction. They are thick and solid and quite rigid. Simple, basic slab body design. They may be made from different wood species, but they are all up in the very stiff range because of their design and dimensions. In the basses, they are stiff enough that they only flex a little bit when the strings move. So, they don't contribute much to the sound, and the 6 basses sound almost the same. Even though the bodies are made from different woods.
Now, suppose you took those 6 bodies and softened them all up. Plane 1/8" off the thickness, cut some internal chambering, whatever. Make them structurally weaker. Do the same dimensional changes to all 6. What you'd find is that each bass will sound different that it did before. The softer body is flexing more and is playing a bigger role in changing the sound on the strings. And, you'll start hearing some difference between the 6. When the wood is able to flex and work, then you can hear the differences between different wood species.
That's the point: If you build the structure of the bass really stiff, then the frame doesn't flex much. It doesn't contribute much to the tone on the strings, or the sound out through the pickup. The final sound is mostly the pickup and the strings. The species of wood doesn't matter. Heck, you can even build the body out of plywood or cardboard. Build it thick enough and add enough resin, and it will be just as stiff as a stiff wood body. And the bass will sound about the same. Because it's stiff enough that it can't move. A slab with pickups!
Some manufacturers and builders intentionally make their bass bodies as stiff slabs. In some cases they want the sound to be all pickups. In other cases, it's done to keep the manufacturing inexpensive and consistent. There are many basses out there in the market which are indeed inert slabs with pickups.
But, most of us manufacturers and small builders do mess around with the wood structures, making them softer in different ways to modify the tone. It can be in the design; dimensions, thickness, chambering. Or it can be in choosing different species of wood. Those are variables that we play with in developing the final sound of our instruments. In addition to experimenting with the design of our pickups.
So, there's no question that there are basses out there which are made from different woods, but sound the same. They are built so the wood doesn't matter. But it's wrong to conclude from that, that wood never matters. If the bass is designed to make the wood work, then the wood does matter.
D
Deleted member 165050
Guest
You know all this is easily resolved with vibration analysis. That’s science stuff with accelerometers and suchlike for those who don’t know. But then to put this subject to bed once and for all would probably reduce TB traffic by about 60%...
...or by just ignoring all this static, dialing in something tasty on your amp and playing!
All that is true. But that's not what this particular comparison is about. The question at hand is about 2 basses that are the same make and model with identical pickups, electronics, and hardware, but are made of different wood species. And both basses are solid planks. But it is being claimed that these basses sound noticeably different and it's because they're made of different wood species.
Without being able to hear these basses for ourselves and not being able to examine them (and maybe switch the strings or the pickups to see if that is what is making them sound different) we're stick with one person's opinion, based on a single anecdote.
I'm proposing doing an experiment to test the claim that two solid body basses, that are identical in every way, except the wood species, will have a different tone.
You are now introducing new variables into the equation like chambered bodies and structure that is purposely made soft so that it affects the way the string vibrates. I actually have 2 basses that I built that are identical except one has a semi-hollow body. The first one is a Carvin "bolt" kit with EMG Jazz pickups. The body is made of ash. The other is a TBC ash body, which is semi-hollow, and has the same Carvin neck, and identical EMG J's and hardware.
And they sound different. Just a little bit. The chambered design of the TBC body changes the way the strings vibrate and the effect is noticeable. Yet, I also have the same Carvin body that is alder and it sounds the same as the ash body. I once had a Carvin mahogany body and I didn't notice any difference in tone.
You know all this is easily resolved with vibration analysis. That’s science stuff with accelerometers and suchlike for those who don’t know. But then to put this subject to bed once and for all would probably reduce TB traffic by about 60%...
For some real fun, try putting a variable strobe light on a bass! It will amaze you how much the bass frame wiggles around at different frequencies.
If you aren't familiar with it, a strobe light is an old-fashioned technique for studying vibration and movement of structures. Back in my race car days, we used to put a car up on stands with the drive train running. Climb under with a variable strobe light, and you could see just how much the frame and parts were deflecting under load and vibration. Scary stuff!
Some years back, I think it was during the SWR bass project, one of the guys brought in a strobe, and we played around with it on the bass. You could clearly see how the neck and headstock and body were deflecting. I don't currently own a strobe light. I should find one and make some videos. That may answer some of these questions.
Well, yes. And I'm trying to explain why this pair of basses, made from different woods, may sound different. Meanwhile, some other pair of basses, made from those same two woods, may sound the same.
They may all be plank basses, but the first pair are both built down in the softer range for some reason. Something in the design, probably thinner front to back. The body wood is doing something.
Another pair of basses, one swamp ash and one alder, may sound exactly the same. Both of them are stiffer than the other pair, for some design reason.
Yes, I'm introducing another variable, because it's there and really important. That's why we're getting conflicting test results.
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Maybe it's been there for awhile and 100 different people have played it. None of them washed their hands first and they all had natural body oils and sweat on their fingers, plus half of them just came from McDonald's.
No one has wiped the strings off for 6 months and they're not only covered with filth, but they've oxidized, too. Plus theyve been stretched out under tension that whole time and they've lost their elasticity.
Or maybe not Maybe they're brand new and sound exactly like the strings on the other bass.
The point is, nobody knows. We can't just assume they're the same and then automatically conclude that the reason the basses sound different is because the wood is different.
That's why I'm enthusiastic about running an experiment to test this. This subject is brought up all the time and it always comes down to anecdotes and subjective opinions.
Maybe it's been there for awhile and 100 different people have played it. None of them washed their hands first and they all had natural body oils and sweat on their fingers, plus half of them just came from McDonald's.
No one has wiped the strings off for 6 months and they're not only covered with filth, but they've oxidized, too. Plus theyve been stretched out under tension that whole time and they've lost their elasticity.
Or maybe not Maybe they're brand new and sound exactly like the strings on the other bass.
The point is, nobody knows. We can't just assume they're the same and then automatically conclude that the reason the basses sound different is because the wood is different.
That's why I'm enthusiastic about running an experiment to test this. This subject is brought up all the time and it always comes down to anecdotes and subjective opinions.
If you're saying that internal differences in design (that we can't see) might be making the diffetence, then that just supports my assertion that species of wood doesn't matter to tone..
I cut out all the strawmen. If you're an expert and your claims are so easy to prove, why don't you just do it?
I already have. Many, many times.
How about this: Here's thread here on TalkBass, written by another Luthier, MPU in Finland, who I've never met. He was curious about all the things I've written about here on TB, about bass structures and how to modify them to improve the sound. Someone came up with the cute name of calling these modifications Brucification. So, he designed and built a bass with my guidance. He documents the whole process, and describes the results. Again, I've never met him. I only talked him through the technical details here online. He's making his own observations and judgements.
Headless four string ”Brucefied”
And, there are others.
D
Deleted member 165050
Guest
This is a link to some vibration analysis carried out on solid body electric bass guitars. The research was specifically concerned with dead spots, but does address how the structure of the guitar affects string vibration (the section on damping). It's a rather dry read, but it does prove that string vibration i.e. sustain is affected by the supporting structure. It also refers to attenuation of specific frequencies which of course would influence tone. So this is proper research proving that the body material affects sustain and tone.
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