Boutique Basses 10k and up?

[Baird6869]

I hate to break it to a few of you, but a very large percentage of high end builders use CNC machines for cutting bodies and more.

Using a CNC isn't a sign of poor quality, it allows highly paid luthiers to do things other than the monotonous task of cutting the same body shapes over and over.....

 

[darrenmt]

There are tons of great builders who I would call master craftsmen that charge a lot less.
Check out Prometeus Guitars' work:
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And he charges from 1300€ up... Though I understand there are other variables. For instance he seems to be using OEM hardware, while some manufacturers make their own bridges and tuners.
Still, some other manufacturers use Hipshot bridges and EMGs, and ask 5000$ and up...

That would look cool in a new metal band with desert camo pants.

 

[josiah goldfish]

It appears that few people understand what goes into an Alembic bass that costs over $10,000. They also do not understand the level of individualality that goes into each Alembic. When I read stuff like there neck is too thick or the body is too heavy. I just see a lack of knowlege talking. Each Alembic is custom made for that individual owner who ordered the bass. That neck was just right for the guy who ordered it.

Yes, there is a price point where the sound does not get better. At that point it is about bass bling, and individuality. I recomend reading the stories behind the making of each Alembic bass of the month. It will help to understand what modivates the building of the high end Alembic's. I also recomend reading some of the build threds on the Alembic site. Few people understand the time and work that goes into an Alembic Bass. Alembic has a small shop and nobody is getting rich there.

The time and effort that goes into matching the woodgrain on the cover over the electronic's cavity blows me away. It can't be done quickly or by a midlevel craftsman. The inlay work on some Alembic bass displays the highest level of craftsmanship. An Alembic bass that costs over $10,000 is a work of art in it self. Then Ron W. bench tests every bass befor it leaves the shop.

Some people are inspired by just looking at art hanging on the wall. To be able to make music with art is inspirational. It helps take players to the next level.

Very well put. Some people buy basses purely for the sound, but forget about the craftsmanship.

 

[GregC]

If a world-famous player starts playing/endorsing your friend's guitars and he triples the price because his name is built up, are his guitars suddenly 3x better? What if he raises prices by 50% to cover rent in a new shop in "the city"? What if he boost the price to adds top woods that do nothing for playability or tone, they'll look better to some people and uglier to others ... will they play better?

Is Mike Lull a "master craftsman"? [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

His "Basses" page reads "Handcrafted Custom Basses" at the top. They're also Plek'd which means nobody is going to have better fretwork. Here' a 5-string of his, retail asking price $2662 and that's before a discount of at least 10-15% I'm sure you could get by just haggling a little. Invalid Link Removed

Is any of that anything other than top-of-the-line hardware? And it looks like a bird's-eye fingerboard, plus it's a 5-string so add $ for that and I'm thinking a 4-string is right around $2k street price. Someone could prefer something different, fancier, more exclusive and expensive, in which case good on 'em, but they'd be unable to prove it's better than the Lull on any empirical or functional/practical level.

Disclosure: I don't own a Lull. I do own and play other jazz bass "clones" that cost 2-3x the Lull and I am sure mine are no better.

Heh, I would be amazed if any builder could raise their prices 3X or even 2X just because a world-famous player endorsed them. Maybe if they started from a low price level.

Also, Pleking does not necessarily = best possible fretwork. It's up to the operator of the machine, and some luthiers produce better fretwork by hand. This is not a knock on Lulls, btw.

 

[peterpalmieri]

Let me provide what I believe to be a good answer for the OP.

If you are sincere in wanting to learn, go and start at the beginning of the Fodera club thread, part I (Or another builder if you choose). Open it in a seperate browser window and read a few pages every night, you will either lose interest and move on to something else or make it to the current posts and have some thoughtful and insightful questions that those who are involved in the thread would be happy to answer. Don't ask questions along the way, take notes and wait to see what is left unanswered at the end. This is not the easy road to take but it will be an education for you. You may even make some friends along the way.

 

[PazzoBasso]

Set up a company... build a bass... figure out your selling price...

Everything matters - location, woods, parts, labour, profit margin, overhead... etc.

10k is a big chunk of change - 10k is peanuts (depends who's 10k it is)

I sat on a 10k couch - my ass couldn't tell

 

[StayLow]

For sure, that's what I was trying to say. My guitar making friend has 'only' made 100 guitars, which is considered quite little compared to other luthiers. I also think his guitars are better than those who charge a lot more, so how the makers choose to value their instruments plays a big part in all this as well.

What I was saying, is that I don't feel it's fair to compare a production line bass to a handmade bass. Most basses in the $10,000 range are what I'd consider made by master luthiers. To compare a cheaply made factory bass to these is unfair to the maker and disrespectful, as they've put the years of effort into perfecting their craft and creating the highest quality instrument. That's not to say those luthiers in the $2000 range aren't as good, it usually just means they haven't been doing it as long or that they decide that they don't need to charge anymore.

All I'm really trying to say is that it's unfair to compare a production line instrument to one made by a skilled artisan, whether that person charges $2000 or $10,000 (but it's especially unfair to compare a production line instrument to one made by a master luthier).

I'm sorry if I've come across as being insulting or grouchy, I'm just a bit upset at the lack of respect for these people who dedicate years to their craft. I've wanted to make instruments since I was 10, and I'm now going to college with the intention of attending an apprenticeship under a highly skilled violin maker. I'm just a little upset that something I love so much is being compared to corporations and businesses that only care about money.

EDIT: I meant to say 'any more', but I don't seem to be capable of changing it on my phone. I didn't mean they don't charge anything!

I better understand you now. Thanks. We agree that the line is between art/craftsmanship and function.

I disagree that it's an insult to craftsmen to compare mass-produced instruments to "hand crafted" because first and foremost basses are solid-bodied electric instruments and there's no reason a properly programmed CNC can't match or outdo any craftsman when it comes to a solid-bodied electric bass' primary function and payability. That's just where technology is at, and in my view it's a tribute to makers and programmers, or "crafters", of computers and CNC machines rather than a slag on traditional craftsmen.

Beyond that is "art" and preference, and choices of the boutique manufacturers when it comes to their costs of doing business, and is what mostly answers the OP's question of what those high prices are based on.

 

[SRFSterling5]

My God, 9 pages! Give it a rest already. Same arguments going around in circles.

 

[Stick_Player]

Because the fact that you don't like the design is a clear indication of an incompetent builder.

No, it's a clear indication that I don't like the design.

I made no reference to it's so-called "build" quality, nor to any "builder". But it's damn ugly looking - frightening, actually

Diseased, comes to mind.

Yuk!

 

[allenhumble]

My God, 9 pages! Give it a rest already. Same arguments going around in circles.

its a conversation on a internet forum. Its happened before.....it will happen again. You dont have to participate.

 

[wvbass]

its a conversation on a internet forum. Its happened before.....it will happen again. You dont have to participate.

Excellent Battlestar reference!

 

[SRFSterling5]

its a conversation on a internet forum. Its happened before.....it will happen again. You dont have to participate.

I know I don't have to participate. But isn't this a tired debate? You like what you like and spend your money on, it's cool. Guess what everyone is gonna have a different opinion, I respect that. But after 9 pages, a lot of the same things are being said and it's starting to become rude and in certain cases condescending. Just an observation.

 

[allenhumble]

I dont understand why people post "not this again" or "end this" posts. Why not just move on?

 

[Baird6869]

Buy a Squier.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

 

[blowinblue]

Been following this very entertaining thread from the beginning. I have just two humble observations to contribute. First, none of this gets me worked up because we are on a forum dedicated to talking about basses. Second, my wife would never let me purchase a $10,000 bass.

M. M.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I hate to break it to a few of you, but a very large percentage of high end builders use CNC machines for cutting bodies and more.

Using a CNC isn't a sign of poor quality, it allows highly paid luthiers to do things other than the monotonous task of cutting the same body shapes over and over.....

Cutting cost on quantity building is not the only reason to use CNC....those machines and the associated software are expensive so saving money in the short or even medium term through increased volume is probably pretty unrealistic for a small builder. Less waste of hard to acquire wood and accurate execution of CAD designs are probably much larger considerations than the ability to just crank the poopie out.

 

[nostatic]

I've talked with Rob Allen about this. He uses CNC to cut bodies and necks (everything starts from raw/dried wood). For a small shop (it is basically him and one other person), the machine is a large capital cost. But what it does is allow him to focus on tasks that require more expertise/experience and can't be automated, at least with an outcome that is acceptable to a picky builder. What comes off the CNC machine is nowhere near finished. There is a saying that the last 10% requires 90% of the work and that dynamic is at play. But the automation gives consistency for the first step and saves both time and physical wear and tear. That is one less set of tasks that the builder has to do with his/her hands. So there is no downside other than the initial cost and having to learn how to program/operate the hardware.

Other builders and factories may use a lot less hand finishing after the CNC. The machines can do pretty fine work, but for the top builders, close enough isn't close enough. I've seen Rob take apart instruments that I thought looked perfect but he knew there was some detail that wasn't up to his standards. That won't happen in a high volume factory, or even many low volume operations. It depends on the skill of the builder and the willingness to sweat the details. That attention to detail is part of what you end up paying for. It may not be necessary to get a serviceable instrument, but some people want more than that...and there are builders who feel the same way.

 

[metron]

C'mon people this is so simple. If you have a bunch of cash, spending it is fun. Some people have so much they have to try to get rid of it. And nice basses are nice, right? $10k is abit of an arbitrary talking point though. Most electric basses aren't that expensive.

 

[bassbenj]

C'mon people this is so simple. If you have a bunch of cash, spending it is fun. Some people have so much they have to try to get rid of it. And nice basses are nice, right? $10k is abit of an arbitrary talking point though. Most electric basses aren't that expensive.

Exactly. Somehow the OP could understand acoustic instruments costing a fortune but not electric basses. "Is a violin "worth" a million bucks?" is EXACTLY the same question! And the answer is that obviously it is to guy who owns it! It seems to me that the fact we are only talking ten grand here is just another old case of electric bass bigotry! Nobody thinks electric basses are "serious" musical instruments!

 

[One Drop]

What a load of nonsense. A bass made with the highest attention to detail by a master of his/her craft is going to be better made than a bass made by robots and underpaid employees. This comment is just ridiculous, it's like saying a painting by a toddler with no artistic talent is better than a painting by a master like Da Vinci or Gaugin. Or a car made by robots and underpaid employees in Korea compared to a car made by Rolls-Royce (for example).

I know which one I'd choose.

Well, to a point pricing is often a result of marketing decisions as much a a strict cost based one.

Two equally talented luthiers might produce identical basses, but if ine becomes better known he might raise his prices and increase his margins. The relation is never strictly linear.

This idea that Korea has underpaid workers really needs to be put to rest. It might be hard to believe for some but not every Asian country is the same.