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Boutique Basses are Better: Get Over It!

BTW, I should reinforce the offer I made a year or so ago to any Sadowsky or AC owners in central Fla to record your bass and post the results on here to see if people can tell the difference between it and an SX.

Strictly going by recordings, it might be very difficult to tell a well set up and shielded SX from a boutique.

The truth is that a big part of the appeal of a boutique lies in the set and fit and finish because when it comes to boutique Js and Ps, the goal most have is to sound like a very good Fender so sound is not truly where the difference lies.:)
 
BTW, I should reinforce the offer I made a year or so ago to any Sadowsky or AC owners in central Fla to record your bass and post the results on here to see if people can tell the difference between it and an SX.

That would be a good test, if it weren't for one thing....we are players, not listeners. I've played all of the basses in question and I can tell you which is which after 'feeling' a few notes. Actually, I'm almost certain that I could pick them out tonally, but, honestly, for me, tone comes second to feel.

There are alot of other factors involved besides tone. And, yes, there is some mystique in there too. Just like the 'vintage mystique,' or the 'Fender mojo,' or the 'budget 60's import indie vibe.'

Like you said, Jimmy, you play what you like. Me too.

Can we all agree that there are some people on both sides of this endless debate that ruin it for everyone by being a jerk about their gear. And that most people here are mature and secure enough to put all this crap aside and support each other.
 
:D

Sorry, I like stirring the pot. You guys are right. You can definitely tell the Sadowsky when you play it. I'm basically looking for an excuse to play someone's Sadowsky for an hour ;)
 
:D

Sorry, I like stirring the pot. You guys are right. You can definitely tell the Sadowsky when you play it. I'm basically looking for an excuse to play someone's Sadowsky for an hour ;)

You point is valid though. Similar to the automobile thing, where it is true that a Chevy will get to you work in about the same time as a Ferrari. Just depends what is important to you... maximum cost efficiency in getting the job done, or a bit extra which can cost a LOT EXTRA:D
 
:D

Sorry, I like stirring the pot. You guys are right. You can definitely tell the Sadowsky when you play it. I'm basically looking for an excuse to play someone's Sadowsky for an hour ;)

Drive up to one of the GTGs some time- it seems like every one has at least a handful of Sadowkys here. I played two out of like four at the last one- there was a P5 that I would have drowned kittens for if I was a fan of the P tone.
 
You're right though- most of the Sadowkys I've seen at them have been 5s.

I think part of the reason for that is the difficulty of making and voicing an instrument with a low B string. For 4 string players, it's hard to go wrong with a good quality Fender or Music Man, or whatever. Once you get up to 5 strings, things start to get more complicated very rapidly, and that is where you get the maximum 'bang for your buck' with a higher end instrument. Also, when you move to active instruments, there's a lot more to it than dropping a J Retro into a Skyline or whatever, if you really want to maintain a somewhat passive tone, but have the advantages of buffering and on-board tone control. IMO.
 
They could sound exactly the same- that would have nothing to do with the premise of this thread. The thread is about the quality of parts and finish- nothing to do with sound, feel, looks, or what suits one best as a player. The point was that it's okay if a boutique has the better parts- that doesn't mean it will have all the other stuff which is more important in the end and could exist in either a boutique or cheap bass.

It seems like a LOT of folks are reading the thread title and replying without reading the original post to see what it says.

Could also depend on what's considered "better" parts. Have to remember we're also dealing with artistry along with craft and equipment here.

Some players prefer, say, the old Fender vintage bridges over the badass or the hipshot or G&L. In that sense, the vintage bridge is a "better" part.

Some players prefer necks with no finish on them at all with the wood soaked with sweat. I would assert that that's probably an artistic interpretation of "quality", but I can't deny that it's valid.

Same with various different types of pickups and so on.

I think a completely objective judgment on "quality" of an instrument is going to be pretty elusive here.

What _does_ seem to be true in the boutique camp many times (but not always) is the presence of the claim that the "boutiqueness" of the instrument usually makes the player better.

But this is demonstrably false in most (but not all) cases simply by having the claimant play a variety of basses and listening to the results. More often than not, my observation has been they sound the same on the "cheap" or "crappy" gear as they do on the stuff they spent half their estate on.

I include myself in this result, tho my level of technique and musicality is in my judgement somewhat below average and so probably not very typical.

Now, if you alternate other aspects such as fit to the player and desired tone, you can and do observe a difference. I.e. the player will sound better on the more ergonomic bass because his/her hand isn't being crunched up, or not having to hold the instrument or etc.
I'm in this camp too - I sound and play noticeably better on basses that fit me.

But only in exceedingly rare cases have I ever heard any of the boutique guys sound any better at all when alternating on the "boutiqueness" only.

So I can't go along with the "boutique" == "better quality" claim right off the bat, the evidence I've heard so far just doesn't support that.

In my particular case I have my own opinions about quality, but those are more artistic judgments (i.e. the hipshot bridge on my carvin I'd consider better quality than a Fender vintage bridge, I think the woodworking on my carvin is better than the typical woodworking on a Fender, etc). At least with my level of playing skill, I can't really demonstrate the truth value of that claim, tho. So I can only say it's a matter of personal opinion.

LS
 
I enjoy this topic. To the poster above, you make good points. However, another way to think about it is that, IMO, the boutique bass industry evolved from two sources (again, IMO rather than documented fact):

1) Alembic and the Jefferson Airplane/Grateful Dead.... who seemed to be the first to try to the expand and 'even out' and fatten the tone/range of the bass guitar by adding active electronics, and more 'accurately' reproduce the full range of a low end instrument, and eventually adding more strings (i.e., Jimmy Johnsons original Alembic 5 and shortly after Tommy Kennedy's Fodera 5 and the Ken Smith 6's). That seemed to be the start of what many call the 'hippie sandwich' boutiques... multi lam necks, complicated electronics, longer scale lengths, etc., etc., etc.

and......

2) All of us 'trying to make our Fenders play and sound better' back in the day.... swapping stock pickups with the Hi A's, replacing rattling bridges that shifted intonation and string height when you dug in, clamping 'fat finger' type deviced to the headstock to reduce dead spots, replacing necks with ones that were less likely to move every other gig, etc., etc. This whole 'hotrodding and 'up spec'ing' Fenders eventually became the 'Super J' sort of instrument, pioneered I guess by Sadowsky and a few others.

So, the whole driving force behind, well, making a 'better bass' was driven by the goal to, well, 'make a better bass', regarding, in (1) above, tone, and in (2) primarily playability, stability, and feel.
 
What _does_ seem to be true in the boutique camp many times (but not always) is the presence of the claim that the "boutiqueness" of the instrument usually makes the player better.

I'd like to know where you're getting this idea. Most high end players will tell you that the instrument doesn't matter; and that they chose their bass on a myriad of factors---not one of them to become a better player.

I'd also like to know where you objectively heard multiple people play a 'boutique' and then a 'production' bass back to back to come to the conclusion that they sound the same.
 
I'd like to know where you're getting this idea. Most high end players will tell you that the instrument doesn't matter; and that they chose their bass on a myriad of factors---not one of them to become a better player.

I'd also like to know where you objectively heard multiple people play a 'boutique' and then a 'production' bass back to back to come to the conclusion that they sound the same.

+1 I missed that part in his post. That would be a TOTALLY different discussion. I would think that most would not even weakly correlate the 'quality' of the instrument with 'how well the player can play'. That's just silly.

I will agree though that someone with sloppy technique and 'beginning' skills' will find it harder to 'feel and experience' the difference between a finely crafted instrument and one 'off the wall'.
 
I'd like to know where you're getting this idea. Most high end players will tell you that the instrument doesn't matter; and that they chose their bass on a myriad of factors---not one of them to become a better player.
That's the primary difference between good players and not-so-good.

Do a search on boutique threads here on TB - lots of good data there where you'll hear the opinions on both sides.

You'll hear the claims from many (but not all) of the boutique guys that their technique and skill are so incredibly nuanced and sensitive that only a coffee table boutique built for them by a luthier and costing some multiple thousands of dollars will be sufficient to properly exploit it. A mass produced or "cheap" instrument just won't allow their genius to shine through like the boutique will.

Then you'll hear about equal no.'s of folks on the other side saying more or less what I'm saying - the bass doesn't make the player, the player makes the player.

Some of that in this thread too.

I'd also like to know where you objectively heard multiple people play a 'boutique' and then a 'production' bass back to back to come to the conclusion that they sound the same.

Just years of gigging and listening to other bands and players, which I'll admit isn't really a rigorous survey by any means ;).

But I've simply hardly ever heard anything like a magical transformation in the quality of sound and playing ever coming out of any of these guys when they play the good bass after playing the bad one.

There are some exceptions, tho most of those I've heard are better explained by the boutique incidentally fitting the player a lot better.

In some cases it's undeniable tho - i.e. John Turner (tho I bet he still sounds fantastic on the 4 strings he used to play). But cases like that are far into the exceptional camp....

LS
 
I think part of the reason for that is the difficulty of making and voicing an instrument with a low B string. For 4 string players, it's hard to go wrong with a good quality Fender or Music Man, or whatever. Once you get up to 5 strings, things start to get more complicated very rapidly, and that is where you get the maximum 'bang for your buck' with a higher end instrument. Also, when you move to active instruments, there's a lot more to it than dropping a J Retro into a Skyline or whatever, if you really want to maintain a somewhat passive tone, but have the advantages of buffering and on-board tone control. IMO.

I agree 100% about the B string. I think it's one of the price justifiers. I'm not saying that you can't have a nice B on a production bass--of course you can---but, the B on my 34" scale CB bass is out of this world.
 
+1 I missed that part in his post. That would be a TOTALLY different discussion. I would think that most would not even weakly correlate the 'quality' of the instrument with 'how well the player can play'. That's just silly.

Well that's my point. If there is any such correlation, it's way down in the noise of other variables like fit and tone. I personally haven't observed it in any significant way despite the claims of the boutique guys that it's there.

I will agree though that someone with sloppy technique and 'beginning' skills' will find it harder to 'feel and experience' the difference between a finely crafted instrument and one 'off the wall'.

This is where I disagree. This is the most common claim I hear from the boutique camp - the old my technique and musicality are so advanced that I just got to have a boutique quality bass to exploit it thing.

Now if this were true you'd sort of expect the claimant to sound and play a lot better on the "good" bass than they do on the "bad" one. But I've hardly ever heard the difference - they tend to sound and play the same on all the equipment regardless.

LS
 
That's the primary difference between good players and not-so-good.

Do a search on boutique threads here on TB - lots of good data there where you'll hear the opinions on both sides.

You'll hear the claims from many (but not all) of the boutique guys that their technique and skill are so incredibly nuanced and sensitive that only a coffee table boutique built for them by a luthier and costing some multiple thousands of dollars will be sufficient to properly exploit it. A mass produced or "cheap" instrument just won't allow their genius to shine through like the boutique will.

Then you'll hear about equal no.'s of folks on the other side saying more or less what I'm saying - the bass doesn't make the player, the player makes the player.

Some of that in this thread too.

Well, I've yet to see something like that. Though, you shouldn't dismiss a whole world of basses because a few people rubbed you the wrong way. Some people dislike Fender because there are so many fanatics on here. That isn't right either.

Instead of arguing the nitty gritty with you, I think I'll find some common ground.......You are right -- the bass doesn't make the player, the player makes the player. For this player, I prefer that my money goes to a small craftsman who is working with me to find the right instrument for me. I certainly can't do this for everything in my life, from my car to my furniture, but since I've been doing this for a long time, I tend to splurge a little on gear.

High end gear will not make me a better player. It only makes me a happier player.
 
So, the whole driving force behind, well, making a 'better bass' was driven by the goal to, well, 'make a better bass', regarding, in (1) above, tone, and in (2) primarily playability, stability, and feel.

This is a good point. I'm certainly not saying that there's never a difference in "quality" that'll affect playing. Some of us older guys who went to war with that old vintage junk will be the first to tell you they'd prefer a boutique over those awful old Fenders and their copies.

Actually, we'd have preferred _anything_ over that crap so we could get through a decent jam session without our hands being hamburger at the end.

So yeah, there's definitely a reason I prefer my carvin and G&L's over the old junk, or why someone might prefer a new reissue 50's precision from Fender over a real 50's precision.

But after you get past a certain level of quality, I think the difference kind of starts to break down and you're really dealing with nuance. At that point, fit and tone are going to be the things that make the difference.

LS
 

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