Boutique Basses are Better: Get Over It!

[KJung]

This is where I disagree. This is the most common claim I hear from the boutique camp - the old my technique and musicality are so advanced that I just got to have a boutique quality bass to exploit it thing.

Per Nicky's post, you misinterpreted what I said. I'm saying just the opposite. The 'bad' player probably doesn't have the skill, touch, ear, or anything to know 'good versus bad'. The good player will sound good on anything, but also (IMO and IME) does have the nuanced skill to 'notice and appreciate' better action, more even tone, fewer deadspots, etc.

So, just the opposite of your comment above.... 'needing' has nothing to do with it, but 'appreciating and possibly using the improvement in playability, etc.' to more easily execute precise, accurate, even, in time playing is reasonable to me.

 

[NickyBass]

you're really dealing with nuance. At that point, fit and tone are going to be the things that make the difference.

LS

Well, think of it this way---Big volume companies have it down to a science. There isn't much Fender can do to improve the quality of their instruments without the cost sky-rocketing for the consumer. They make fantastic instruments, but they can't really focus on the nuanced needs/desires/wants of each individual customer. Just try to get a quote from the Custom Shop. Haha. You'll end up spending 6 grand on a jazz bass with minor custom touches.

In the end, noone NEEDS fanned frets or 9 strings or active preamps or fancy wood tops---but, if the sky is the limit, why not go for what you really WANT?

 

[WILL WAHL]

For the cost of some of these " HIGH END" Basses they should come with Automatic tuning, on board AC, 2 year string warranty ect..ect! I just can't see spending that kind of cash just for a bass! But wisdom does come with age! But saying this if you are Stanley Clarke, V. Wooten, Will Lee! I can understand justification!! But not for the average want a be! I am a big Stanley Clarke fan and met him in the 80's got autograph shook hands I was in Awe! But i can't justify paying x amount of cash for an alembic! It's not that i can't afford it ! But to guys who want to spend that cash i say go for it! You only live once!

 

[Ziltoid]

I want a roscoe 6

 

[T-MOST]

I think MOST times the guys crying that a boutique isn't worth the $$ and that their Sx "is every bit as good" as a Sadowsky or A.C (after $500 in mods) are jealous. Jealous that they can't have one and feel bad everytime they hear someone gushing over their Boutique. Hey, I can't afford a 80K Mercedes but I know it's still nicer than my Saturn (which is actually very nice)! But I'm not knocking the guy with the Mercedes. Yes they both get me from point A to point B, have AC, power everything and a nice stereo but thats not the point. Some folks like things a little nicer than they "have" to be. Get over the sour grapes guys.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

A big part of what I'm getting at is that we should feel comfortable with our purchases. Years ago, I got rid of the best bass I ever owned, a Ken Smith Six bolt-on on an impulse because a friend of mine irritated me with what I felt was peghead worship. I have really regretted that because I have not been in a position to replace that bass since then.

The flip side of that is there have been times when I owned a really nice bass, but felt out of place because I did not have a Fender.

The bottom line is that most of us are rational, and we are perfectly capable of picking basses that work for us. We don't need to justify what we have because someone else is rocking a much cheaper or much more expensive bass or amp.

My only point is that there are standards by which the quality of manufacture can be measured, and boutiques tend to come off favorably compared to factory basses in those comparisons. Once again, that does not mean that the factory bass won't work just fine for years, and work well on dozens of gigs and recordings.

Heck, you can even buy gear that is boutique or approaches boutique level pretty cheaply if you don't mind buying lesser known makers like FBB or Valley Arts, or buying brands that typically have low resale value like Peavey or Carvin.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

I would also like to say that there are factory basses that consistently produce gear that is on par with boutique basses, but those factory basses are not cheap at all. High end Yamahas are great basses, but run overt 2K. MIA Music Man basses are fantastic if one likes 17mm spacing on fives, and doesn't mind a bit of weight or you are willing to pick through them to find a lighter one. The catch is that Music Man prices are really going up and getting very close to 2k, which is where I think Sadowsky would be if they were made in Music Man numbers.

Warwick is great too, if they fit you. Due to the Euro/Dollar situation, frankly a Ken Smith or Sadowsky may be a better buy for an American.

 

[unclejane]

Per Nicky's post, you misinterpreted what I said. I'm saying just the opposite. The 'bad' player probably doesn't have the skill, touch, ear, or anything to know 'good versus bad'. The good player will sound good on anything, but also (IMO and IME) does have the nuanced skill to 'notice and appreciate' better action, more even tone, fewer deadspots, etc.

Well, no, I still think you're saying pretty much the same thing that the boutique guys are saying in so many words, and I still can't quite agree.

Hell even _I_ can tell the difference between something "bad", like a bad version of a 70's Fender jazz and something "good" like my carvin. The appearance, action, attention to detail, sure I'm very easily able to tell the difference.

I mean if _I_ can recognize these differences than a brain-dead deaf chimpanzee can tell the difference....

Even so, if I were play each side by side for you you'd hear virtually zero difference in the quality of playing and the tone would differ just in the inherent differences in the tones of the two instruments.

One guy in a previous thread claimed that he pretty much had to go boutique just for the B string, claiming too much "flop" on "lesser" instruments. And that he just couldn't compromise his technique on the B's of lesser instruments.

Again, even _I_ can get a decent sound out of the B on practically any 5 or more string I've ever picked up. Yeah there are very subtle differences here and there but if _I_ can find the B serviceable on a "lesser" instrument probably anybody can.

So, no.... I'm still not inclined to buy the claim. No audible difference to me in any case.

So, just the opposite of your comment above.... 'needing' has nothing to do with it, but 'appreciating and possibly using the improvement in playability, etc.' to more easily execute precise, accurate, even, in time playing is reasonable to me.

Well ok if you say so, but again I'm more inclined to explain it as an incidental improvement in the fit of the instrument to the player moreso than it being this or that boutique.

There're just too many boutique agnostics out there that know about fit and (therefore) can have an optimal experience with a "lesser" instrument than there are examples of the reverse for me to really believe it.

I could be wrong, but I havn't heard anything that convinces me yet.

LS

 

[KJung]

Well, no, I still think you're saying pretty much the same thing that the boutique guys are saying in so many words, and I still can't quite agree.

Hell even _I_ can tell the difference between something "bad", like a bad version of a 70's Fender jazz and something "good" like my carvin. The appearance, action, attention to detail, sure I'm very easily able to tell the difference.

I mean if _I_ can recognize these differences than a brain-dead deaf chimpanzee can tell the difference....

Even so, if I were play each side by side for you you'd hear virtually zero difference in the quality of playing and the tone would differ just in the inherent differences in the tones of the two instruments.

One guy in a previous thread claimed that he pretty much had to go boutique just for the B string, claiming too much "flop" on "lesser" instruments. And that he just couldn't compromise his technique on the B's of lesser instruments.

Again, even _I_ can get a decent sound out of the B on practically any 5 or more string I've ever picked up. Yeah there are very subtle differences here and there but if _I_ can find the B serviceable on a "lesser" instrument probably anybody can.

So, no.... I'm still not inclined to buy the claim. No audible difference to me in any case.



Well ok if you say so, but again I'm more inclined to explain it as an incidental improvement in the fit of the instrument to the player moreso than it being this or that boutique.

There're just too many boutique agnostics out there that know about fit and (therefore) can have an optimal experience with a "lesser" instrument than there are examples of the reverse for me to really believe it.

I could be wrong, but I havn't heard anything that convinces me yet.

LS

I again am not talking at all about 'playing better'. The key is, as Dr. Cheeze says, play what sounds and feels good to you. That can easily be a well set up Squire. And the 'tone' thing can be very complicated also, since, for example, many boutique J's strive for a 'relatively accurate vintage Fender tone', but in, for example, a 5 string active bass format. I actually take it as a compliment when someone says that a couple of my basses sound like 'the best Fenders they've ever heard'. Nothing wrong with that, and the feel, playability, lack of dead spots, and especially light weight make the big bucks I spent worth every penny to me (along with the perfect aesthetics, finish, color, etc... which of course has nothing to do with music or playing, but is 'pleasant' and 'enjoyable' to many players, including me!).

And... yes... I 'sound' about the same (i.e., like me!) on a MIM Fender passive 4 string (same time... for better or worse!, same execution... again for better or worse!, etc.). That's again, a different topic IMO.

I guess it is like Duke Ellington (or was it Louis Armstrong... can't remember) said (loosely paraphrasing)... 'if you have to ask, it doesn't matter'

 

[Darkstrike]

I think part of the reason for that is the difficulty of making and voicing an instrument with a low B string. For 4 string players, it's hard to go wrong with a good quality Fender or Music Man, or whatever. Once you get up to 5 strings, things start to get more complicated very rapidly, and that is where you get the maximum 'bang for your buck' with a higher end instrument. Also, when you move to active instruments, there's a lot more to it than dropping a J Retro into a Skyline or whatever, if you really want to maintain a somewhat passive tone, but have the advantages of buffering and on-board tone control. IMO.

I agree 100% about the B string. I think it's one of the price justifiers. I'm not saying that you can't have a nice B on a production bass--of course you can---but, the B on my 34" scale CB bass is out of this world.

This is a lot of what boutique is about for me, a spectacular B string is hard to come by, I know this for sure, and it only gets harder if you downtune the B any.

Again, even _I_ can get a decent sound out of the B on practically any 5 or more string I've ever picked up. Yeah there are very subtle differences here and there but if _I_ can find the B serviceable on a "lesser" instrument probably anybody can.

"Decent", "Servicable", not what people buying boutiques are looking for.

 

[Sleeq]

Lets shed some light here:

You might have a 10,000$ bass but still lose the local Bassist of the Year competition (which i saw happen with my own two eyes years ago).

A guy with a beat-up samick won the competition. Why? Pure technique.

I can afford those boutique basses... but i choose a standard Pbass (for the sound I'm looking for in my head).

 

[bassbully]

I think MOST times the guys crying that a boutique isn't worth the $$ and that their Sx "is every bit as good" as a Sadowsky or A.C (after $500 in mods) are jealous. Jealous that they can't have one and feel bad everytime they hear someone gushing over their Boutique. Hey, I can't afford a 80K Mercedes but I know it's still nicer than my Saturn (which is actually very nice)! But I'm not knocking the guy with the Mercedes. Yes they both get me from point A to point B, have AC, power everything and a nice stereo but thats not the point. Some folks like things a little nicer than they "have" to be. Get over the sour grapes guys.

I dont know if its all sour grapes at all. Its all about to me if its really worth it. Should i drop the coin for the high end gear when decent middle line gear plays great and sounds awsome?
Would i feel any better with a high end bass strapped to me that i dropped several grand on v.s. a bass i dropped several hundred?
If you can play ...play! What you choose to do it on depends on budget and choice. I can afford much more expensive gear but have taken the middle ground since it suits my style ,sound and ..its paid for If i had a $5000 dollar bass in a case and a $800 dollar bass in a case and wasnt getting gigs i could justify the $800 dollar bass collecting dust...not so with a $5000 dollar bass. I am not a pro just a weekend warrior and middle line stuff works.
I dont need fancy to be heard and most people dont care in the least. On cars its the same its all in what you need and can afford. I drive a Scion since i needed a simple fuel friendly car. I could of bought allot more but would i miss it...no. I can insure it simply and repairs are not costly. Try that with expensive cars.The Scion like my basses get used and I am not afraid to take them out and use them any time anywhere. A fancy big buck bass or expensive car would have me affraid to take them out everytime.

 

[KJung]

I can afford those boutique basses... but i choose a standard Pbass (for the sound I'm looking for in my head).

I again love this rather esoteric and overly posted on topic (since most normal people would be rolling their eyes about 50 posts ago in this thread!).

However, your above statement is one of the reasons you see 99%+ of 'boutique' basses being modeled exactly (or at least 'loosely') on the 'J Bass' design versus the P Bass design.

The passive P Bass is pretty hard to improve upon, and while there are some 5 string P basses, those super deep notes don't seem to translate as well with the single pickup in that P spot versus the wider range of tones, deeper bass, and more prominent highs of the 'two pickup in general J position' type design (of course, Anthony Jackson would have something to say to me about that... but he's special).

 

[DeluxeRed]

To the "the player makes it..." and "Victor would sound like Victor..." camps, no matter how good you are, if you hit a bunch of deadspots, you'll sound like a bunch of deadspots. Can a more experienced player work around those better? Of course. Can a more experienced player fret better and get fewer buzzes from a low-action neck than a beginner? Of course. Can more experienced hands work with a high, stiff action better than a beginner? Uh, duh. So I have an MIM J that plays fantastic, but if you roll back one of the stock pups, all you get is noise. No matter how good you are, all you're gonna get is noise. But if you use both pups all the time, it sounds fine. Someone wanting the funky one-pup sound isn't going to find that MIM adequate without a bunch of mods. So if V walked into my office and picked up the MIM and dialed it to one pup, he'd sound like...well, not like V, no matter how hard he tried. OTOH, if he picked up my CS and dialed over to one pup, well, he'd like it (I would presume) and I'd have a really neat post to share.

And to the "nuanced boutique" crowd...howzabout some nuanced botique music worth listening to? I have a fairly wide-flung net, yet I've captured very little worth listening to more than once that can attribute its likability to the use of botuque basses. Some older Stanley, maybe, but, face it, it's pretty slim pickins. (I'm always open to suggestions, and follow a lot of links from TB, but I'm just trying to make a general point.) Certainly hard to point to any "hit records." Maybe "Aja", 30 years ago (and I don't really recall or care what was used on that).

But here's where I'm at with it: I have a personal affinity for Fenders because I grew up on them and music created on them. I like the high-end ones because of objective reasons, like the pup noise, their rock-solid stability and consistency (among others), and because of subjective ones--exclusive styling that appeals to me, a more solid feel, and, to me, the ability to cover a wide range of tones for the covers I (primarily) play.

And they DO make me a better player! Not only is it easier--again, for me--to get the sound I want out of them, but, more importantly, they make me want to be better! They inspire me not only with their beauty to my eye and ear, but also with the knowledge that I can do anything I want with them--the rest is up to me. I would struggle with that with a low-end bass, even in the Fender family, as I would struggle to get the tones I like from some 7-string. With the instruments I use (they're pretty-much interechangable), I can be my best, I want to be my best, and they let me and help me be my best. That's worth every dime, and if that have that effect on you, would be worth it to you, too. And, sure, that's a circular argument: I want to be better so I work harder and get better. I'm more the reach-beyond-my-grasp sort, not the do-it-in-spite-of sort, though I appreciate people find motivation in both. But being better because of a better instrument isn't a shortcoming, it's an advantage.

And if you're one of those players who just flat cannot appreciate the difference between an off the rack SX and a high-end instrument, or sound the same whatever you play so your SX is just peachy, power to you if you're happy with that. I think it's kinda too bad. I enjoyed moving up to better instruments (and amps) and opening more doors sonically--you know, growing.

 

[KJung]

And to the "nuanced boutique" crowd...howzabout some nuanced botique music worth listening to? I have a fairly wide-flung net, yet I've captured very little worth listening to more than once that can attribute its likability to the use of botuque basses. Some older Stanley, maybe, but, face it, it's pretty slim pickins. (I'm always open to suggestions, and follow a lot of links from TB, but I'm just trying to make a general point.) Certainly hard to point to any "hit records." Maybe "Aja", 30 years ago (and I don't really recall or care what was used on that).

You are using a VERY limited definition of boutique. Remember, all that boutique means in the technical sense is a relatively small batch producer that typically has the 'founder' directly involved in the manufacturing... resulting in, by definition (i.e., lack of economy of scale in production, purchasing and distribution), high prices/cost.

Regarding hits.... MANY of the relatively recent modern country and pop hits were recorded with Sadowsky basses, Lakland basses, Ken Smith basses, (and Fenders and Music Man basses, of course) etc. Boutique has NOTHING to do with a specific tone, but rather small batch, quality made instruments with more detail and emphasis put on construction, assembly, quality of components, set-up, etc.

If Stanley Clarke's Alembic tone (one of the worst IMO in the history of bass playing) is the first thing that comes to mind in a 'boutique' discussion, then we are talking about VERY different concepts here

Edit: To give Alembic, the 'father all all boutiques' its due after my snarky Stanley comment above, check out Jimmy Johnson's work with James Taylor. That has to be among the best recorded bass tones of all time to me, and it sounds just as good coming out of the mains in a live setting (check out James Taylor live.... THAT is a bass tone, and Jimmy's true front of house tone sounds very similar to that 'through the board live tone' on that wonderful disc.... IMO!).

 

[SteveC]

Every once in a while someone posts about gear snobs or wonders if boutique basses are really worth the money. Some, like myself, have wondered if they are really that much better than factory basses.

The bottom line is most boutique basses are better made than most factory basses. That does not mean that the boutique bass will give a particular player the sound that he or she is after, and it does not mean that a given boutique will be comfortable or look appealing to any given player. What quality means is that compared to a similar factory bass, the boutique will have better fit and finish, will likely take a better set up, will probably be quieter, and will have better components like tuners, pots, etc.

The fact that the boutique is better than the factory bass does not mean that the factory bass is bad or that it wouldn't be a great tool for a music career or hobby. Just look at all the pros who can afford boutiques who use factory basses!

I know I'm not saying anything new. I just think that we need to face facts and move on. Most importantly, we need to play good music regardless of the price of our gear.

I agree. Dr. Cheese and I tend to agree. I have had each - many of each. There is no doubt in my mind that "boutique" basses are better. They should be. That said, if I had never played a Modulus, Lakland, Ken Smith or Sadowsky, my factory made Yamaha BB605 would be just fine. Hell, I may still sell my Sadowsky and play my Yamaha. It's a GREAT bass that has been my go-to for years. No one has complained about my sound except me - and maybe my keyboard player but he is usually just giving me crap as he knows he can get me going.

I sometimes have a hard time justifying such a bass when there are so many things my family could use, but my wife insists it's OK for me to have a nice bass as I do play frequently and she appreciates a nice bass as much as I do.

Bottom line - play what works for you and what you can afford and don't worry about all the people on TB who play boutique basses.

 

[unclejane]

"Decent", "Servicable", not what people buying boutiques are looking for.

That's what they tell us, yes. But compared to how they sound on the "lesser" B string, you'd think they were going to the extra expense and trouble for other reasons than the B. That's what I'm inclined to think.

For what it's worth, the strings make the lion's share of difference on the B string, far more than the instrument. I used a set of roundwounds (D'addario's IIRC) on my old washburn fretted 6 (definitely a "lesser" bass) and it's B had more tightness than either of the B's on my L2500 or my carvin. But I'm using flats on those which have a little more of a rubber-band sound. Rounds on the L2500 tho give the heavy, woody B. Havn't tried rounds on the carvin, tho I'm getting pretty good results with the TI's and so probably won't need to switch.

LS

 

[Darkstrike]

For what it's worth, the strings make the lion's share of difference on the B string, far more than the instrument. I used a set of roundwounds (D'addario's IIRC) on my old washburn fretted 6 (definitely a "lesser" bass) and it's B had more tightness than either of the B's on my L2500 or my carvin. But I'm using flats on those which have a little more of a rubber-band sound. Rounds on the L2500 tho give the heavy, woody B. Havn't tried rounds on the carvin, tho I'm getting pretty good results with the TI's and so probably won't need to switch.

I've had 15, maybe 16 basses tuned to B(at all kinds of price ranges), with varying scale lenghts, played a whole heap more, and I've tried all kinds of strings, flats and rounds, while strings do have a lot to do with it, the bass does too, a suprising amount.

I've even swapped the same(very same) B string to five different basses, with the same scale length, felt different on each one.

There's a reason the only 5 string or less bass I have with a low B string left is my Roscoe. And thats tuned Bb.

 

[KJung]

That's what they tell us, yes. But compared to how they sound on the "lesser" B string, you'd think they were going to the extra expense and trouble for other reasons than the B.....

Um.. yes, we are. The B string is just one of the things that seems to take some more 'love and care' to really get to sing.

Again, if you find an off the rack production bass that speaks to you, that's a WONDERFUL thing. If, on the other hand, that leads you to think that there is 'little difference' across a wide variety of spec's, measurement, performance measures among basses with different component quality and attention to detail/design/production, then the discussion is kind of over.

It's the same discussion Chevy owners have with Mercedes owners (using this as a general example... I realize there are 'Mercedes' and then there are "MERCEDES"!). When the Chevy owner says 'I love this car and it gets me to work just as well as your Mercedes', those statements are true. And, a Chevy owner can enjoy a Chevy as much as a Mercedes owner can enjoy a Mercedes. That has NOTHING to do with whether they are 'the same or different', or if some notice and/or appreciate the differences.

 

[Dr. Cheese]

...So I have an MIM J that plays fantastic, but if you roll back one of the stock pups, all you get is noise. No matter how good you are, all you're gonna get is noise. But if you use both pups all the time, it sounds fine. Someone wanting the funky one-pup sound isn't going to find that MIM adequate without a bunch of mods. So if V walked into my office and picked up the MIM and dialed it to one pup, he'd sound like...well, not like V, no matter how hard he tried. OTOH, if he picked up my CS and dialed over to one pup, well, he'd like it (I would presume) and I'd have a really neat post to share...

+1,000!!! I've been using an Affinity J-5 until I pick another bass comes in, and truly, it gets a nice Jazz tone with both pups on, but the 60 cycle hum is always noticeable, and it gets horrible if I solo a pickup, it is even pretty bad with the tone completely off.

The neck, fretwork, and pots on the bass are really quite nice, but it would need extensive shielding just be a decent gigging bass, IMO.

If you heard me play at church on it, I would sound fine, but I know that the options on that bass are very limited if we played a place where we went through a nice house system, the noise would be a problem.


Paying more for a bass that does not have those issues just makes sense although one does not have to go boutique to improve on a super cheap Affinity.