Building a superior 2x10 cab

[craig.p]

But, you can not close mic a cab with tweeter (you can but the results are not satisfying)
Mic a cab without tweeter will be less of a problem.

Yes, I agree 100%. I was speaking of cabs with identical drivers as being the ones that might contribute character and need to be mic'd. Two twelves, four tens, two fifteens, and so on. Bass cones running at or near Xmax, in other words. If those cabs happened to have tweeters, and something useful was actually coming out of them and needed to be duplicated through the mains, you could mimic that "snap" with a range-constricted direct feed.

 

[JimmyM]

It is like that, problem of a for example, standard 4x10 cab is not in its multiple drivers but in the allignment of the drivers on the baffle. 10 inchers side by side have projection of the mids something like one 20 inch driver, which is not good. But if you take two good 2x10 cabs and stack them vertically, you will get one serious rig due to the proximity of drivers to your ear level and increased horizontal dispersion.

+1.

 

[JimmyM]

i disagree that you can't mic a cab with a tweeter or mid driver. you just have to find the sweet spot.

 

[craig.p]

i disagree that you can't mic a cab with a tweeter or mid driver. you just have to find the sweet spot.

I just had a mini-nightmare. A TB153 with an RE20 on the fifteen, an SM57 on the mid, and a condenser on the tweeter.

Maybe it was the Jimmy Dean Breakfast Bowl from a few hours back.

 

[Arjank]

I just mailed Oberton, see if they have a distributor.....
But, I know the distributor from the Netherlands.....

 

[Arjank]

built a 210/6 cab using Eminence BP102's with a dedicated mid driver (but no tweeter). The BP102 has a superior xmax to the 10B200 and also goes lower. It has about the same sensitivity, power handling and weight too. The BP102 also comes in either 4 or 8 ohms.

Acme already has a 210 cab that does what you are after, but I'm interested in seeing what you come up with too.

I just checked the TSP of the BP102, the xmax is just a tiny bit larger (the max excursion without distortion is also determined by a lot of other factors not only the voicecoil lenght and the air gap depth). The BP102 also needs a very large (ported)cabinet to really shine. A Qts of 0.43 and a Vas of 92liters (3.2 cu ft) normaly would need a cab of approx. 110 liters. The -3dB point will be very low then, approx. 32hz.
The ideal cab for the 10B200 will be approx. 30 liters and the -3dB point will be approx. 50hz. This may sound not very low, but in real life this is more then low enough for a 4 string bass. I even tested the 10B200 in a 24liter cab tuned to 55hz and the low B of my 6-string bass sounded very clear and punchy. Also, when you play live with a PA you do not want to have lowest octave blowing out of your cabs, this will give the soundman a headache because you'll get a lot of phase shifting problems and he has to deal with it.
If you want the lowest octave on stage, just get an active subwoofer with an 18" woofer just to handle the sub 50hz tones.

About Acme, I know these cabinets and they talk about the same problems as I mentioned. They only solve it in another way. The only thing that I don't agree with is that they say a 2-way system does not work, it does when you do it like the design I talk about. Just lower the crossover frequency to a point where both drivers operate in their ideal range. Also a 2-way design (with low crossover point) will have less phase shifting problems and a better off-axis response (also due to the 8" tractrix horn).

 

[Arjank]

Btw Sundogue, I like your approche too.
About 13 years ago I build two cabs with each a 15" woofer and a small 5" fullrange driver for the mid/highs. It sounded very good, the only drawback was the cabinet size and the sensitivity. Trying to find a good quality 5 or 6" driver that can keep up with a 15" is not easy.

 

[Sundogue]

I just checked the TSP of the BP102, the xmax is just a tiny bit larger (the max excursion without distortion is also determined by a lot of other factors not only the voicecoil lenght and the air gap depth). The BP102 also needs a very large (ported)cabinet to really shine. A Qts of 0.43 and a Vas of 92liters (3.2 cu ft) normaly would need a cab of approx. 110 liters. The -3dB point will be very low then, approx. 32hz.

You do know that the BP102 does not need to go in a cab that size, right? You also know (I'm assuming, given your audio experience) that putting the BP102 in a smaller box and tuning it differently will result in the same thing you are after with the 10B200.

The ideal cab for the 10B200 will be approx. 30 liters and the -3dB point will be approx. 50hz. This may sound not very low, but in real life this is more then low enough for a 4 string bass. I even tested the 10B200 in a 24liter cab tuned to 55hz and the low B of my 6-string bass sounded very clear and punchy. Also, when you play live with a PA you do not want to have lowest octave blowing out of your cabs, this will give the soundman a headache because you'll get a lot of phase shifting problems and he has to deal with it.
If you want the lowest octave on stage, just get an active subwoofer with an 18" woofer just to handle the sub 50hz tones.

I'm curious why you tune your boxes so high (50 and 55 Hz)? It's not terribly high, just wondering. The ideal cab for any speaker is what its intended purpose is. That's why we get to play around with cab volume and port size...which is half the fun!

I agree about not wanting all those sub 100Hz frequencies on stage (for the most part), although I certainly wouldn't use an 18" to accomplish it.

About Acme, I know these cabinets and they talk about the same problems as I mentioned. They only solve it in another way. The only thing that I don't agree with is that they say a 2-way system does not work, it does when you do it like the design I talk about. Just lower the crossover frequency to a point where both drivers operate in their ideal range. Also a 2-way design (with low crossover point) will have less phase shifting problems and a better off-axis response (also due to the 8" tractrix horn).

I agree that a 2 way works. I wouldn't bother using a tweeter for bass (but that's me and I don't care for the extreme top end of bass). I'd rather use a mid driver capable of going up to say 5kHz or so smoothly.

Post the specs on your crossover when you build it (or will you use a ready made one?). I'm no crossover expert (not by a long shot), although I'm sure others here would like to see yours.

I really am interested in seeing what you come up with, although I'm not sure how superior it's going to turn out compared to some 210's already in existence. Better than most from what I gather, but from what is out there now for Pro Audio neo woofers, 210 cabs using heavy drivers are becoming a bit obsolete. Even Acme is trending towards neo these days.

Personally, I only built my 210/6 and 110/6 cabs using the BP102's because I already had them lying about. If I had to buy speakers to build a cab around, I'd go with Eminence 3012LF or the 3015LF. Lighter, louder and lower by far. I still love my cabs though, so I hope to see what you come up with.

 

[Arjank]

putting the BP102 in a smaller box and tuning it differently will result in the same thing you are after with the 10B200.

The BP102 will not perform the same, it will not sound as accurate. It may go as deep or even deeper, but the "quality" of the basssound will be not on par with the 10B200 in the same small cab. When I would use the BP102 in a small cab I would not make it ported but sealed because the quality of the basssound will be better.

I'm curious why you tune your boxes so high (50 and 55 Hz)? It's not terribly high, just wondering. The ideal cab for any speaker is what its intended purpose is. That's why we get to play around with cab volume and port size...which is half the fun!

I agree about not wanting all those sub 100Hz frequencies on stage (for the most part), although I certainly wouldn't use an 18" to accomplish it.

It seems pretty high, but the cab for the 2 10B200 will be approx 60liters and tuned to 48hz. With what I experienced I do not need a lower tuning frequency. Btw. it will also cost me some efficiency.

The 18" was just an example, but for the sub frequencies you just need to move lots of air, it's a mechanical thing. The tone and sound characteristics come from the upper frequencies (harmonics).

I agree that a 2 way works. I wouldn't bother using a tweeter for bass (but that's me and I don't care for the extreme top end of bass). I'd rather use a mid driver capable of going up to say 5kHz or so smoothly.

Just like you say yourself, it's a choice you make on the basis of your needs.

Post the specs on your crossover when you build it (or will you use a ready made one?). I'm no crossover expert (not by a long shot), although I'm sure others here would like to see yours.

I really am interested in seeing what you come up with, although I'm not sure how superior it's going to turn out compared to some 210's already in existence. Better than most from what I gather, but from what is out there now for Pro Audio neo woofers, 210 cabs using heavy drivers are becoming a bit obsolete. Even Acme is trending towards neo these days.

I will post the specs and measurements when I'm ready, I will not make use of "standard" crossovers, it will not work.

I hope my cab will turn out superior, thats my goal. If I succeed, I don't know. I just put all my knowledge I know about loudspeakers into it. When it's ready I will compare it to an Eden cab from a friend of mine.
I know that Neo speakers are what people want in their cabs these days. But, I have not seen many 10" drivers with neo magnets that have good TSP's. Most of these drivers have a to strong motor, which results in a bassless sound. Your BP102 is the opposite of that. The 10B200 just has the ideal parameters for a small ported cabinet to use for bassguitar. It's also has a stiff fiberglass cone making it great for accurate midbas reporduction.

 

[cnltb]

I really like the idea of a cab that is as neutral as can be. The best I have found is the wayne jones 2x10.
That one is very good indeed.

I'll certainly keep tracking this thread!

 

[cnltb]

i disagree that you can't mic a cab with a tweeter or mid driver. you just have to find the sweet spot.

I'd do it the same way as a lesley cabinet...from about 1 meter away. That just won't do it live I guess...

 

[JimmyM]

I'd do it the same way as a lesley cabinet...from about 1 meter away. That just won't do it live I guess...

ha! right on! well if it's a cab with a tweeter, i've found that the tweeter sound somehow manages to make it to the mic even if you're not right up on it. i don't have a lot of experience micing up a cab with a mid driver, so that may be a bit more difficult than with a tweeter, but i still think it can be done without going too far from the cab with the mic.

 

[Arjank]

don't have a lot of experience micing up a cab with a mid driver, so that may be a bit more difficult than with a tweeter,

It all depends on how the off-axis response of the driver is and how the woofer and tweeter(or mid) sum up at nearfield.
What cnltb says, that he mics his lesly at 1mtr distance can give pretty good results because the distance is (probably) large enough to not have phase and off-axis response issues. But on the other hand, micing at 1mtr distance on stage is not ok (or you have to play solo).

 

[Arjank]

There is one neodymium 10 that will come very close to the specs of the Oberton, see this link http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma 10MwNd-1.htm

Both drivers can be put in the same size enclosure and because of the low crossover point the crossover components can stay pretty much the same. It will make for a good condidate if the Oberton is not available in the US.
It is only way more expensive....
One other point is the harmonic distortion, the Oberton has lower H3 distortion in the range between 200 and 2000hz.

 

[AlexanderB]

You will obviously get many suggestions here, lots of them recommending Eminence. I am however with the OP here. Having used some of the "top" Eminence drivers (Deltalite II 2510, Kappalite 3015LF, BP102 etc) I have also made that observation. In general even these "top of the line" standard components from Eminence distort way more than some units from other brands like RCF, BMS, EV and even some older Cerwin Vegas that I have.
And the more regular stuff from Eminence (like Kappa 15, Gamma 10, Kappa Pro 12 etc) is even worse in terms of fidelity. It is also annoying how they generally change character once you start pushing them. IMHO a speaker should pretty much keep its voicing until you are fairly close to its limit before giving audible distortion to warn the user.

My solution has been to move away from Eminence for any sensitive mid/high frequency application. I really like the mid bass output and robustness of Kappa Pro 12 in my PA, but for jobs and mids/HF there are better opinions. The Kappalite 3015LF also did a good job between 50 and 200Hz, but not so good higher or lower.

Eminence's customer support is top notch though and so has the consistent prouction quality also been for the units I have used.

On a side note: I run a number of Community SLS 920 in my PA, and their horn loaded 8" (2 per box) is an impressive OEM Eminence part. It sounds much better in the mids than any other Eminence cone transducer I have encountered.

 

[Arjank]

It is also annoying how they generally change character once you start pushing them.

It's good to hear that I'm not the only one who heard these eminece's fart when they are pushed beyond xmax
There is even a more worse eminence 10" speaker, the Delta10. This one not only starts to distort very early it also sounds very honky.
Don't get me wrong, eminence does also make good speakers. My 4x8"cab has alpha8a's in them. They don't have a large xmax but within their mechanical limit they sound very good and offer tight bassresponse for a 4-string bass. Btw. I modified the Alpha8a's because one time I blew one. I removed the dustcap and added a aluminium phaseplug to draw the heat from the voicecoil. This works amazingly well, I have never blew an Alpha8a again. Also, the frequency response got better because there was no dustcap to interfere. I also treated the cone (partially) with a polyurathene laquer so the cone got stiffer and would not crease near the suspension.

 

[Arjank]

Good news, it's possible to order Oberton directly from the manufacturer
I saw the prices and they are not expensive, you only need to know what it will cost to get them into the US.
They can ship by air or sea.

 

[jlepre]

This should lead you to the conclusion that a 2 x 10 cab is not the path to take for studio type results. Consider using a single larger driver for the low end and cross it over with a dedicated midrange.

You mean like THIS?

Sorry for the slight hijack, but I just got this cab, and it sounds very VOCAL, and 3 dimensional.

 

[mikeddd]

That cab has caught my eye as well, jlepre. The price though...ouch.

 

[Arjank]

The Genz Benz Uber Quad 1288T looks like a great cab.
I like the concept, it should give a very tight and clear midbass response because of the two 8" mid/woofers in a sealed enclosure.
But I'm looking for a more "point source" quality and a good off-axis response. Thats why I use a 2" driver placed as close to the 2 10" woofers in combination with a low crossover point.