Cab Sim IR's and LIVE sound

[TeoStr]

Hi dear friends.
My name is Teo. Greetings from Greece.
I am a bassist and I'm building my portable kinda rig.
I do live stuff mostly.
I need a help in understanding more in depth the IR philosophy and how I could benefit from it.
Probably this gonna be a big thread but I would like to be detailed and understood on what I ask. Sorry and thanks in advance.

In order to catch up answers I have already read many threads around but couldn't find yet the answers I seek.

I am mostly an analogue guy but (as all of us) I'm trying to reduce weight for my transportations. The digital amp modelers is not my thing anyway.
My rig till now consists by:
* a tuner
* a noise gate and the
* all analogue Tech 21 XB Driver (2 channels bass preamp)

At home I go balanced (Line level) from the XLR output of the XB Driver to my QSC K8.2 active Full Range speaker.
In live situations I usually go directly to FOH desk using the exact above path and occasionaly I go simultaneously to the RETURN of the stage amp via the unbalanced TS 1/4" Output of the XB Driver.

The ideal is to mimic the Ampeq sound as close as possible,
but without the weight.
The preamp by itself is very very close. At least to my liking I'm very happy and fulfilled of what I get from it. Very convincing I dare to say with meat and balls.
Especially the crossover bi-amp feature with low and high pass filters on both channels is a shaging game changer.

Well, I step upon IR's in which I'm completely unfamiliar and by human curiosity the devil made me to ask myself (and you furthermore) if I could achieve something even more realistic with those in the game. Do I really need them? How does it work? From where to where?... And stuff like that.

Although I made my research, read a lot of topics, threads, seen dozen of YouTube videos, however I couldn't get all the answers I need for my setup scenario. I have understood what an IR is, what length of it is useful. The basic philosophy and structure anyway. But I still have queries.
And here I am asking you.

The only one IR loader that fits in the above shown Pedalboard is this one: TC electronics Impulse IR Loader
and probably placed underneath the Pedalboard as a "set and forget" pedal. It doesn't fit on top anywhere.


QUESTIONS

1.) Where should I place the IR Loader in the signal chain?
In the very end, directly after the XLR output of the XB Driver and before the K8.2 speaker? Is that the appropriate place?

2.) But the IR Loader has 1/4" I/O's only (not XLR) and the cable from the Balanced Output of the XB Driver is a microphone CABLE (not an instrument cable). Should I make XLR to 1/4" TRS and 1'4" TRS to XLR cables in order to make properly the connectivity? That's the way?

3.) In a live situation, where the XLR output from the XB driver goes FOH and the 1/4" output goes to my speaker or into the return of the stage amp.... Where will the IR Loader be? Because it seems that it cannot be on both. Is that true?
Only one of those will have the IR sound?

4.) The IR cab simulation will alter all my eq from the preamp itself?
Or it just adds the picture of the Cab (the air, the presence, the reverberation of the room) with a specific microphone?
In my sound, especially the distorted sound, where high and low pass filters have taken place, the eq is critical.
If something comes after and change all this, then that's not ideal at all and not welcome.
I'm asking because the IR will be after the eq-ing on the preamp. And if it truly alters dramatically the preamp stage eq, I cannot see the reason to fix surgicaly my eq on the preamp and all this be lost and replaced by something else by the IR. That's very confusing and not ideal to me. That's the reason I don't want the amp modelers thing.... The simplicity of my preamp. You set values just out of the box and you are ready to go. If I have to make different eq settings back and forth then that leads to a chaos and the ideal simplicity just like that doesn't even exist anymore.

Anyone who has the knowledge, please try to inlight me and guide me.


Thank you.

 

[s0c9]

Why not simplify your objective and replace the XB driver with an Ampeg SCR-DI or SGT-DI pedal.
Same hookup. Ampeg sound in a pedal. No IR’s to test, mess with and load into your rig…
No other changes to your live rig.

 

[TeoStr]

Why not simplify your objective and replace the XB driver with an Ampeg SCR-DI or SGT-DI pedal.
Same hookup. Ampeg sound in a pedal. No IR’s to test, mess with and load into your rig…
No other changes to your live rig.

Because I love the SansAmp sound primary and because now I have given my money on this. I can't go back. I will loose money in order to sell and buy something else. And I'm really tired of selling things. I will stick with my SansAmp. Till now I have changed gear back and forth countless times.

However it's not only an "Ampeq" thing.
I may find that I like more a GK cab Sim instead.

The major question of mine is if the job can be done professionally just with the preamp straight to PA - FOH or a cab Sim adds a magical flavor in between that I truly loose?
Primary I'm trying to figure out this because I have no experience at all with IR's.
Right now what I get straight from the preamp to the PA Speaker satisfies me a lot.
However I would like to understand what do I get more if I place an IR in between.
Personally whenever I go straight to a PA System I don't feel that I loose the "woomph" of the amp behind me. On the contrary I feel my sound more consistent and more clear.

 

[s0c9]

Because I love the SansAmp sound primary and because now I have given my money on this. I can't go back. I will loose my money in order to sell and buy something else.
However it's not only a "Ampeq" thing.
I may find that I like more a GK cab Sim instead.

The basic question is if the job can be done professionally with the preamp straight to PA - FOH or a cab Sim is vital in between?
Primary I'm trying this to figure out because I have no experience with IR's.
Right now what I get straight from the preamp to the PA Speaker satisfies me a lot.
However I would like to understand what do I get more if I place an IR in between.
Personally whenever I go straight to a PA System I don't feel that I loose the "woomph" of the amp behind me. On the contrary I feel my sound more consistent and more clear.

Personally, I think you are overthinking things. 99.99% of your audience won't know (or care) if you have a cab sim in your rig. They WILL know if it sounds good or not.

 

[TeoStr]

Personally, I think you are overthinking things. 99.99% of your audience won't know (or care) if you have a cab sim in your rig. They WILL know if it sounds good or not.

I don't care what my audience thinks. But I do care how I feel about my sound.
That's why my questions.
Do you have any income knowledge to share with me?

 

[s0c9]

I don't care what my audience thinks. But I do care how I feel about my sound.
That's why my questions.
Do you have any income knowledge to share with me?

Ok. Then good luck with your efforts.

 

[TeoStr]

Ok. Then good luck with your efforts.

I thank you deeply for your time.
However you didn't answer me.
Do you have any technical guidance to what I asked (my 4 questions in my 1st thread) or your will was just to say what you wanted to say?

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi dear friends.
My name is Teo. Greetings from Greece.
I am a bassist and I'm building my portable kinda rig.
I do live stuff mostly.
I need a help in understanding more in depth the IR philosophy and how I could benefit from it.
Probably this gonna be a big thread but I would like to be detailed and understood on what I ask. Sorry and thanks in advance.

In order to catch up answers I have already read many threads around but couldn't find yet the answers I seek.

I am mostly an analogue guy but (as all of us) I'm trying to reduce weight for my transportations. The digital amp modelers is not my thing anyway.
My rig till now consists by:
* a tuner
* a noise gate and the
* all analogue Tech 21 XB Driver (2 channels bass preamp)

At home I go balanced (Line level) from the XLR output of the XB Driver to my QSC K8.2 active Full Range speaker.
In live situations I usually go directly to FOH desk using the exact above path and occasionaly I go simultaneously to the RETURN of the stage amp via the unbalanced TS 1/4" Output of the XB Driver.

The ideal is to mimic the Ampeq sound as close as possible,
but without the weight.
The preamp by itself is very very close. At least to my liking I'm very happy and fulfilled of what I get from it. Very convincing I dare to say with meat and balls.
Especially the crossover bi-amp feature with low and high pass filters on both channels is a shaging game changer.

Well, I step upon IR's in which I'm completely unfamiliar and by human curiosity the devil made me to ask myself (and you furthermore) if I could achieve something even more realistic with those in the game. Do I really need them? How does it work? From where to where?... And stuff like that.

Although I made my research, read a lot of topics, threads, seen dozen of YouTube videos, however I couldn't get all the answers I need for my setup scenario. I have understood what an IR is, what length of it is useful. The basic philosophy and structure anyway. But I still have queries.
And here I am asking you.

The only one IR loader that fits in the above shown Pedalboard is this one: TC electronics Impulse IR Loader
and probably placed underneath the Pedalboard as a "set and forget" pedal. It doesn't fit on top anywhere.


QUESTIONS

1.) Where should I place the IR Loader in the signal chain?
In the very end, directly after the XLR output of the XB Driver and before the K8.2 speaker? Is that the appropriate place?

2.) But the IR Loader has 1/4" I/O's only (not XLR) and the cable from the Balanced Output of the XB Driver is a microphone CABLE (not an instrument cable). Should I make XLR to 1/4" TRS and 1'4" TRS to XLR cables in order to make properly the connectivity? That's the way?

3.) In a live situation, where the XLR output from the XB driver goes FOH and the 1/4" output goes to my speaker or into the return of the stage amp.... Where will the IR Loader be? Because it seems that it cannot be on both. Is that true?
Only one of those will have the IR sound?

4.) The IR cab simulation will alter all my eq from the preamp itself?
Or it just adds the picture of the Cab (the air, the presence, the reverberation of the room) with a specific microphone?
In my sound, especially the distorted sound, where high and low pass filters have taken place, the eq is critical.
If something comes after and change all this, then that's not ideal at all and not welcome.
I'm asking because the IR will be after the eq-ing on the preamp. And if it truly alters dramatically the preamp stage eq, I cannot see the reason to fix surgicaly my eq on the preamp and all this be lost and replaced by something else by the IR. That's very confusing and not ideal to me. That's the reason I don't want the amp modelers thing.... The simplicity of my preamp. You set values just out of the box and you are ready to go. If I have to make different eq settings back and forth then that leads to a chaos and the ideal simplicity just like that doesn't even exist anymore.

Anyone who has the knowledge, please try to inlight me and guide me.


Thank you.

This probably isn’t going help you much in your search for the Ampeg sound, so I ask you to consider that a large part of the “Ampeg Sound” was due to their speaker cabs.

 

[TeoStr]

This probably isn’t going help you much in your search for the Ampeg sound, so I ask you to consider that a large part of the “Ampeg Sound” was due to their speaker cabs.

Hi dear friend. Thank you for your time answer me.

Maybe I put it wrong. I'm not trying to replicate the Ampeq sound. It may be impossible without the real thing.

I love however the sound of my SansAmp XB Driver. It really fits me.

My major question is would I benefit more by adding IR's in between? Check and my other 4 questions please.
I would like some technical input. Not thoughts.

Thank you.

 

[DonaldR]

I've been playing ampless for more than a decade and never use an IR for my bass (but I will never play my ampless guitar rig without an IR).
I personally don't need it and if you think of it, the majority of live bass sound is coming from a DI taken after the pedalboard but before the amp.

There is a very good Ampeg SVT simulation on my Eleven Rack. I enable the 8x10 IR when playing at home but I disable it when playing with the band. The sound is clearer and more focused, YMMV.

 

[Adjectives]

I have tried a few IR loaders and similar effects (in some of the digital Darkglass pedals) and to my ear....I cannot hear any difference. I switch between a overdrive and a tube fuzz for my main tones. This may be because I use Ampeg cabs and don't have a FRFR speaker like you do.

That being said, in response to your question #1, I believe the IR loader should at the end of your signal chain, after the XB driver before the speaker. That will "load the impulse response" after your preamp had already shaped the tone! Best of luck!

 

[dbsfgyd1]

Hi dear friend. Thank you for your time answer me.

Maybe I put it wrong. I'm not trying to replicate the Ampeq sound. It may be impossible without the real thing.

I love however the sound of my SansAmp XB Driver. It really fits me.

My major question is would I benefit more by adding IR's in between? Check and my other 4 questions please.
I would like some technical input. Not thoughts.

Thank you.

Quote “The ideal is to mimic the Ampeq sound as close as possible”. I guess I misunderstood. Heck, English is hard even for us that have been here all our lives..lol!!!

Anyway best wishes on your search.

 

[FronTowardEnemy]

I have been IEM for quite a while, and have used IR’s in the TC impulse and HX Stomp.

My advice to you, is run the IR last in the chain, maybe before a HPF if you have one, and get a cheap passive DI to go FOH.

Not ideal, but you can keep your current setup without spending a lot of money.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

Personally, I think you are overthinking things. 99.99% of your audience won't know (or care) if you have a cab sim in your rig. They WILL know if it sounds good or not.

I find that FOH sound without a cab sim, as an attendee at gigs, can sound quite scratchy and horrible. In many instances the audience can probably tell it doesn't sound great but will not necessarily know or care that it could sound better. If I'm playing I'd rather it sounds as good as possible. The weak part in the chain will be my playing, but a cab sim is easier to fix.

 

[whatizitman]

The XB, like most of Tech 21 stuff, already has a cab sim in the circuit. Unless you want specific cab sounds, I’m not sure the added complexity of a separate IR loader would be worth it. Not to me, anyway.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I don't care what my audience thinks. But I do care how I feel about my sound.
That's why my questions.
Do you have any income knowledge to share with me?

The IR at the end of the signal chain is going to the PA and your audience. They will hear whatever it is you are putting out there through that. It will have little to no effect on you on stage, you will not have any improvement on your sound or feel on stage, unless the IR is also going through whatever amp is on stage with you. Even at that, it may still have little noticeable effect, and it might even make your stage sound muddy.

The idea of having a speaker emulation going through a dedicated bass amp with a speaker cabinet already kind of defeats the purpose.

Think of the IR as a mic’d speaker cabinet. Going out to the FOH is different as it is full range and made to reproduce the sounds from the stage accurately. So the IR will sound like it's intended. Through a bass amp and cab that have the characteristics of a bass amp for sweetening the sound of a bass, not a full range reproduction item like a PA or FOH system. It would be like mic’ing up a bass amp and then plugging the mic into another bass amp

 

[DJ Bebop]

Hi dear friend. Thank you for your time answer me.

Maybe I put it wrong. I'm not trying to replicate the Ampeq sound. It may be impossible without the real thing.

I love however the sound of my SansAmp XB Driver. It really fits me.

My major question is would I benefit more by adding IR's in between? Check and my other 4 questions please.
I would like some technical input. Not thoughts.

Thank you.

The IR will change your sound, therefore you EQ settings will be affected. Think of it as plugging you head into different speaker cabinets. Each cabinet brings its own tone quality and affects the overall sound. That is purpose of an IR loader, to be able to harness the sounds of different cabinets to be used in recording or FOH with out the need of mic’ing a real cabinet on stage.

 

[Wasnex]

Two Notes makes a pedal board friendly IP loader. The previous model was the C.A.B M+ and the current model is the OPUS.

I suggest you stop and think about what you are trying to accomplish and why. Here is the primary point of a cab SIM. Many bass cabs have a fairly strong baked-in voicing. This voicing modifies and filters the sound you hear on stage. If you sample the signal before the cab and send it to a full range, flat-response system like a PA, what you hear coming from the PA will not have the modifications and filtering provided by your bass cab. The cab SIM is intended to modify and filter your signal so it sounds more like a bass cab. For maximum authenticity you would use a SIM that actually models your bass rig.

Since you are using essentially a full-range, flat-response speaker, the sound you hear on stage should be fairly similar to the sound produced by the PA cabs. It still tends to be necessary to apply a bit different EQ for the house mix because the acoustics are different and because the signal needs to lay properly in the mix. Applying EQ for the FOH mix is not something I recommend you do from stage. Hire a good audio tech with the right artistic vision and let him/her do their job. This means get out of their way!

If you like the sound you are getting on stage through you QSC K8.2, then I don't see a point in applying a cab SIM to the signal going to FOH. The biggest likely difference between the PA and and a small speaker like the K8.2 is the low frequency cutoff. I would expect a professional level mixer to have a variable HPF on each channel, so it should not be necessary for you to run a cab SIM to filter out extreme lows. Let the audio tech set the HPF to the frequency that is ideal for the situation.

If you don't like the sound you are getting from the K8.2, then a cab SIM can be used to make it sound more like a bass rig. Under this circumstance, you would most likely send the processed signal from the cab SIM to the K8.2 and front of house. However, by using a post signal there may be situations were you need to work out a compromise with the audio tech. The more extreme the processing, the more likely a compromise will be.

The reality is getting a good bass sound live tends to range from difficult to impossible. The biggest part of the problem is lack of control. Basically you are generating sound in a large acoustic space and the sound will tend to bounce around randomly and change. The audience hears a mix of direct and indirect sound, and the ratio between direct and indirect sound varies constantly through out the room. Ideally the audience would only hear direct sound coming from a single point source. But for live music, the audience tends to hear direct sound from multiple sound sources as well as variable amounts of indirect sound, which is a reliable recipe for mud.

If you regularly work with same audio tech, I suggest you set aside some time to discuss the efficacy of adding a cab SIM.

 

[-Asdfgh-]

If FRFR on stage I'd say keep the IR in the chain for it and FOH but have additional EQ for the FRFR side so you can tweak for audibility on stage.

 

[brianrost]

Personally whenever I go straight to a PA System I don't feel that I loose the "woomph" of the amp behind me. On the contrary I feel my sound more consistent and more clear.

Are you already using the cab sim in the XB driver?

From the Tech 21 description:

"BUILT-IN SPEAKER/CAB SIM: The 100% analog SansAmp Tube Amplifier Emulation technology encompasses the entire signal chain, from pre-amp to power amp to speaker simulation. The SansAmp speaker sim is designed and individually tailored for a smooth, even response as would be achieved by a multiply-miked cabinet –without peaks, valleys, and notches associated with single miking and many IRs."