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Carol Kaye and why we need help protecting our stuff....

I may be mistaken but for copyright purposes I believe what's required to be documented are the lyrics, melody and harmony - basically the information you find on a leadsheet. Considering that, at least from a copyright standpoint, the bass line is irrelevant.


Every situation is different.



If you write an original bass line you can and should get co-writers credit.

Most musicians don't know this and most are to scared to say anything.


There is a trick that a lot of artist play on musicians. They give you a chord progression and from there you write a bass line that you came up with, not the artist.

And then the artist is credited with writing the bass line. That is logically incorrect.

I have done my share off session work where I have gotten co-writers credit because I did indeed write the bass line.


It really is only fair.

It's really simple. You ask the artist do you want me to play your bass line? or I play my own?
 
In general, no parts of songs individually are not copyrighted, but once part of a copyright protected work, they are protected. That is why there are mechanical royalties for songwriters, then performance royalties. Once music is published, many artists can record it, have to give some $$$ to the song writer, but they may publish their own, specific performance, and get a percentage of royalties as well. I will ask everyoone to read the reference books I posted on other threads here for the actual detail, but if you are on or own the master recordings of published songs, you can be entitled to payments as well.

I will disagree with the person who said that a bassline in and of itself can't make or be the songs. "I'll Take You There" IS David Hood's bassline. Also, "Super Freak" IS Rick James bassline. Yes, there are words, but how many of you can tell me what the guitar does in Super Freak? Same for I'll Take you There.
 
In general, no parts of songs individually are not copyrighted, but once part of a copyright protected work, they are protected. That is why there are mechanical royalties for songwriters, then performance royalties. Once music is published, many artists can record it, have to give some $$$ to the song writer, but they may publish their own, specific performance, and get a percentage of royalties as well. I will ask everyoone to read the reference books I posted on other threads here for the actual detail, but if you are on or own the master recordings of published songs, you can be entitled to payments as well.

I will disagree with the person who said that a bassline in and of itself can't make or be the songs. "I'll Take You There" IS David Hood's bassline. Also, "Super Freak" IS Rick James bassline. Yes, there are words, but how many of you can tell me what the guitar does in Super Freak? Same for I'll Take you There.

Rick Didn't play on superfreak BTW. A song can be a bassline but only if it's COPYRIGHTED that way,sorry to yell but that's the point people keep missing.Also you mentioned David Hood's Bassline from "i'll take you there" this song came out 4-5 year's before I'll take you there and was actually based on a even older rock steady song

The Liquidator - Harry J All Stars - Reggae 45RPM - YouTube
 
Good example. However, I find the bass line to "Bust A Move" central and vital to the song. Considering there are little-to-no other support instruments besides bass and drums through most of the track, the bass line pretty much IS the song, instrumentally speaking.

But you said it best: Flea did not co-write "Bust A Move" and only got session compensation, even though that bass line helped that track become a huge dance floor hit and sell millions.

Ballin'Jack "Found A Child" - YouTube
go to a minute and 45 sec into the video and tell me flea deserves a writing credit for playing bass on bust a move.
 
If you were called to play on a session and the artists says that he/she wants you to play an original bass line(that you write) and the song gets released and becomes a hug hit and every one involved makes millions but you.

And then you find out that you didn't get co-writers credit.

How would you really feel about your bass line?

I wouldn't feel anything about my bass line.

I might feel I made a poor choice doing work for hire instead of demanding a writing credit, but that would be my own poor choice in protecting my interests.
 
I might feel I made a poor choice doing work for hire instead of demanding a writing credit, but that would be my own poor choice in protecting my interests.

If a player is aware of the many ways one can be properly given co -writer( or even writers credit) one wouldn't have to feel that they made a poor choice.
 
Artist answers, it's really simple... this is an hourly rate studio session, and I'll hire someone else.

That is not always the case.

I really don't have bass lines(that I actually wrote) to be giving away. And sit back and not get what I'm owed.

Pay me accordingly for my services.

There are artists who can't write a killer bass line that actually helps the song if their life depended on it. But you give them the perfect bass line and they get the % of the writers credit that should be rightfully going to the writer of the bass line.


That's another part of the business that kats don't understand. Or seem to want to understand.

But that's on them.

As a rule, remember that every session is not the same. And you do not have to be some artist bitch.
 
Ballin'Jack "Found A Child" - YouTube
go to a minute and 45 sec into the video and tell me flea deserves a writing credit for playing bass on bust a move.

Well, for starters, I never claimed Flea deserved a songwriting credit. I merely pointed out that his bass line was fundamental to the song.

Second, at 1:45 in that YouTube vid/song, that is the signature guitar riff, not the bass line. What little bass is there is far different from the funked up line Flea plays throughout "Bust A Move."
 
Artist answers, it's really simple... this is an hourly rate studio session, and I'll hire someone else.

This.

And there is a line of players who will do the session.

To get that lucrative royalty, the session bassist must be very skilled, business savvy, and tight with the powers that be.

Session musicians and backing vocalists are asked to sign a standard consent form (drafted by the Musicians Union and Equity respectively). This waives their rights to be paid each time their performance on a recording is used.

Instead they get a one-off payment for the session.

Also, there are several legal entities who are experts specifically in royalty recovery. If Carol Kaye, or any session musician, has documented proof that they were to receive a royalty and they have not been, these legal entities can sniff it out and get them paid.
 
Well, for starters, I never claimed Flea deserved a songwriting credit. I merely pointed out that his bass line was fundamental to the song.

Second, at 1:45 in that YouTube vid/song, that is the signature guitar riff, not the bass line. What little bass is there is far different from the funked up line Flea plays throughout "Bust A Move."

Flea doubled the guitar lick basically with a few fill's here and there,I never heard the track the sample came from, learn something new everyday
 
There is a lot of nuance to session playing. The most basic is the hourly union rate. You don't automatically sign away all your rights, but in most cases the contract you sign when you take the session will say you get the rate, or "paid to perform for hire", meaning you only get paid to lay it down. Now, typically, that means the piece is already completely written, has a pre-arranged bass part or darn close to it. I get paid to play your notes.

When you look at some of the session work they were doing back then, and the fact that like in Nashville the numbering scheme opens that up for a little interpretation. If you give me just a chord chart and ask me to come up with the bassline, I'm going to ask for a very small royalty on the publishing, because although I am not the writer or given a co-writer credit, I still am materially writing or creating something that didn't exist before. That royalty may be a crumb, but I usually ask and will get it.

The example of Carol Kaye being a session player for Brian Wilson is a good example. Brian wrote out all the parts he thought should be. He wrote out the bass charts. He would give Carol a little leeway on how the line was played, but he basically wrote it. Same for the one she talks about a lot, "The Beat Goes On". Now, she was a session player, and the line she came up with was different then what was charted. So it becomes gray legally, although back then everyone was making decent money and they didn't fret over it much.

I have been involved in legal actions like Flea and others over writing credits for a lot of similar reasons. I had a contract once that specifically said that I get one half of one percent of the original writer's publishing (he had co-publishing, so that for me was one half of one percent of 50%) or a co-writing credit. She decided to not give me the co-writing credit, and when she sold a few CD's I came knocking. Six months of attorneys writing letters, telling me I was not material to the song. I had a contract that said I was, didn't matter if all I did was pedal eighth notes. The song was picked up for a local car dealer ad campaign, and interestingly most of what they used was my bass in the background and the owner speaking over it. My work, my pay.

I'll say it again, yes, Carol could have maybe done some finances differently and that would have assisted her situation. But I have seen her DVD on YouTube and a couple of other websites, and she did not authorize that. A friend of mine asked his kid to see if he could pull it using bit torrent, and he was able to. All this is clearly a violation, and it does effect her pocket book.

Lets assume you were 75 years old, and for the past five years you averaged $50K in book and DVD sales. Now, lets say you anticipate it will drop over the next five years, maybe 10% a year. You set up your finances to anticipate that, and you can adjust to some fluctuation. But now, lets say it drops 60%, but you find out that there were 20,000 P2P and bit torrent shares. I'd say that these illegal downloads or shares definitely could put you on the breadline, quickly.

I brought up the point originally about the rap "fartish", as someonce said, because of the attitude, not the specific nuance of using a direct bassline or song.

I'm surprised, right now there are a bunch of people "occupying" Wall Street supposedly against corporate greed and lack of jobs. Ask these same people if they should have to pay for music or if they do and I bet you most would say no.

My point is, if you are illegally sharing these things, or using them illegally and know you are using them illegally, why would you care who makes money? Obviously, you don't need money, because you take everything for free.

I have copyrights on several songs that are me singing over bass. I then will copyright some of the same songs in full performance version. Costs me the extra $35, but I don't wind up in this fight about who owns the bassline.

As for basslines that are the same as older works, if its now public domain its okay, but you shouldn't be able to specifically claim a royalty for it. Now, if it is part of a larger work and you get some master recording royalty, different story.

Either way, I am enthused that everyone is assisting Carol by buying her stuff and leading others to do it. I hope we can help her out a bit, and when the time comes, which I hope it won't, I hope everyone here that needs our help we can do something.
 
narud said:
Ballin'Jack "Found A Child" - YouTube
go to a minute and 45 sec into the video and tell me flea deserves a writing credit for playing bass on bust a move.

I'm well familiar with this song...I have the '63 Fender Concert amp that was used on that original Ballin' Jack track. But it is merely a guitar riff. The bassline Flea plays is completely different and is nothing from the original Ballin' Jack song.
 
I think that sampling is a great way of recyceling old forgotten songs that most people dosen't know about and make it into something new, a whole new song, not a remix or someone singing new lyrics over the old recording.

I agree. Using "found sources" to create something new, yet derivative, can, in the right hands, be very compelling. There is no need to stifle this type of composition, JUST PAY FOR IT.
 
I'm well familiar with this song...I have the '63 Fender Concert amp that was used on that original Ballin' Jack track. But it is merely a guitar riff. The bassline Flea plays is completely different and is nothing from the original Ballin' Jack song.

all flea is doing is grooving along to a pre-existing groove set up by a guitar sample. the same thing any half-way decent player that gets called in to do a session would do. that theme is what sets up the song, not the fills he plays that surround the main rhythmic figure.