Check out this $3000 "Fodera"!!

[Brad Johnson]

Rule of thumb: someone making a claim that is outside accepted parameters (such as, the bass in question, which looks nothing like a Fodera bass, being a Fodera bass) has the onus of responsibility placed upon them to prove said claim. No amount of wrestling with semantics can overcome that. Obviously, that didn't happen, and eBay pulled the ad.

Let's deal with what we know (I know... a bit late for that). Ebay pulled the thread because...?



The response to the ad by some TB members was basically "hey liar, prove you're not lying".

And if you guys seriously think you were protecting someone who was going to spend $3k on that bass in spite of what they didn't know (and is $3k really a Fodera price? What Fodera can you get for $3k in 2010?)... that would've been a good lesson if it wasn't genuine for someone with more money than brains.

IMO.


I had a person supposedly knowledgable with Foderas advise me that I shouldn't call my 1992 Anthony Jackson Contrabass an Anthony Jackson because my bass has a preamp and Anthony Jacksons basses don't... and Anthony Jackson might come after me. So much for expertise.
;D

 

[Roy Vogt]

I'm easily one of Mike Tobiases earliest customers but if I saw the same P style bass on ebay, substituting Tobias for Fodera, I wouln't go off like many did in this case.

Someone could make an Alembic connection to the basses you mentioned. And the reason why they'd do that is because more people are familiar with Alembic than Pan (Alembic). And there actually was a connection.

I didn't hook up with Kevin B. until the mid-90's and bought my first one around 1999. Thanks.

As I amended in my earlier post, Mike built the replacement neck for Jeff Berlin's Fender with dual Barts, so I know he did Fender type necks as special orders, repairs, etc. I bought my first Basic from him in 1985 at the New Orleans NAMM show, you must have been one of his customers when he was based in Florida. I believed he had moved to the Cahuenga location by 1985 when I bought that bass.
I've just seen so much Junk on Ebay with fabrications about what it is I guess I'm a little touchy.....
Probably The Pontiff or Jason could enlighten us....

 

[Electra Player]

Is it really worth arguing over?

If you don't believe it, you don't. If you do (well, did), bid on it.

A bass is a bass. No matter who makes it, how much you spend, it al boils down to the same thing. It's a bass.

Pick and choose what's what as you will.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Is it really worth arguing over?

If you don't believe it, you don't. If you do (well, did), bid on it.

A bass is a bass. No matter who makes it, how much you spend, it al boils down to the same thing. It's a bass.

Pick and choose what's what as you will.

Was that really worth posting?



People talk about things on Talkbass... even things you don't think merit discussion.

BTW I have an MPC Outlaw with a couple of working modules. Nice bass.

 

[Brad Johnson]

As I amended in my earlier post, Mike built the replacement neck for Jeff Berlin's Fender with dual Barts, so I know he did Fender type necks as special orders, repairs, etc. I bought my first Basic from him in 1985 at the New Orleans NAMM show, you must have been one of his customers when he was based in Florida. I believed he had moved to the Cahuenga location by 1985 when I bought that bass.
I've just seen so much Junk on Ebay with fabrications about what it is I guess I'm a little touchy.....
Probably The Pontiff or Jason could enlighten us....

My point with bringining Mike up wasn't that he built Fender type basses, just substituted him for the builder in question. I remember Jeff's bass had Hi-A pickups (Barts). I thought that was too cool at the time.

I know what you mean about some of the BS you see out there... as laughable as it it, I still favor the verify, then sound the alarm way to address the issue. Most of the folks I know/knew are still reasonably easy to get a hold of.

IIRC I first talked to Mike after he had keft this area (Washington, DC.) in the late 1970's. I remember he told me he worked on the construction of the subway early on and atthe Guitar Shop on Connecticut Ave (still there as far as I know). My first bass was built long before he was known to anyone... it was on the wall in Zavarella's Music in Crystal City, VA for at least a couple of years, new, before I bought it. A friend took me there the first time when I was on leave, came back a year later it was still there. At the time it was pretty wild; big omega cut on the body, very long horn, neck looked like it reached into the next room, big (at the time) Bartolini (non Hi-A) pickups, strange (Stars Guitars) hardware, it had two 9v batteries (when the most you'd see on a rare occassion was one). Definitely not a Fender

I think I finally got it late 79/early 1980. I talked to Mike around then. He explained the workings of the JHD Audio preamp, pretty advanced in it's day with parametric EQ with Q switch. Zav's was asking $700 for the bass new and I was amazed no one had pulled the trigger on it. In what later became typical of me fashion, I found a BC Rich Mockingbird in the Washington Post for $500 and traded it straight up for the Tobias. Saved $200. I found a 1968 Fender Jazz with a 2-12 Silvertone tube amp in the Post for $125 not long after. I still have both Tobiases and that Jazz.


I kept the strap from the BC Rich... it was nice wide leather one. Branded by Gibson

For several years following that if you were interested in Tobiases and want to see one in the MD/DC/VA area you'd likely come by my apartment to have a look at the only one around. I also traveled around the East Coast alot and helped get himto a few stores.

I had him build my second one, an omega cut hybrid 5 with the unembossed curved Bart pickups, a few years later. in 1984.

 

[dose]

Is it really worth arguing over?

If you don't believe it, you don't. If you do (well, did), bid on it.

A bass is a bass. No matter who makes it, how much you spend, it al boils down to the same thing. It's a bass.

Pick and choose what's what as you will.

+1
ANY bass is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it no matter who made it

 

[Franz Jr.]

What did I start!!

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I still have both Tobiases and that Jazz.

Have any pics of the Tobiases?

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

This:

The response to the ad by some TB members was basically "hey liar, prove you're not lying".

is exactly right. Making a claim that is out of sync with known parameters? Prove it. That's how things work. Can't prove it? That's no one else's problem. Anything less is plain gullibility. I'm not saying no one is allowed to be gullible; that's not my call. I don't even have a dog in this race.

 

[Brad Johnson]

This:



is exactly right. Making a claim that is out of sync with known parameters? Prove it. That's how things work. Can't prove it? That's no one else's problem. Anything less is plain gullibility. I'm not saying no one is allowed to be gullible; that's not my call. I don't even have a dog in this race.

It appears you don't have the same issue with deeming someone a liar prior to having actual proof of it that I do.

If you don't know everything, your known "parameters" frankly suck. so far nobody here knows everything about that bass.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Have any pics of the Tobiases?

Sure, I'll pm ya.

 

[thepontif]

Simple. That bass is a mattadeer.

 

[Roy Vogt]

IIRC I first talked to Mike after he had keft this area (Washington, DC.) in the late 1970's. I remember he told me he worked on the construction of the subway early on and atthe Guitar Shop on Connecticut Ave (still there as far as I know). My first bass was built long before he was known to anyone... it was on the wall in Zavarella's Music in Crystal City, VA for at least a couple of years, new, before I bought it. A friend took me there the first time when I was on leave, came back a year later it was still there. At the time it was pretty wild; big omega cut on the body, very long horn, neck looked like it reached into the next room, big (at the time) Bartolini (non Hi-A) pickups, strange (Stars Guitars) hardware, it had two 9v batteries (when the most you'd see on a rare occassion was one). Definitely not a Fender

I

I had him build my second one, an omega cut hybrid 5 with the unembossed curved Bart pickups, a few years later. in 1984.

I do remember that build (5 string with the Omega cut). They profiled it in Guitar Player in 1984 and I almost bit. I was already deep in Modulus World back when Geoff ran the company-I had a 1983 Quantum 6-the Phil Lesh model with neck through REALLY tight string spacing and passive Bartolinis and a couple of 1984 5 strings, a Stars Guitars 5 string with EMG PJs and a neck through that I had Geoff put Alembic Spoiler Electronics in (I'm trying to buy that one back).
I remember the Foderas in particular because they were the first 6s I saw in the flesh in New York (I did have Ken Smith's mailer with Anthony's 6 string). The one I checked out on 48th in 1984 was pretty chunky and had a Precision-type pickup made of two of those EMG humbuckers used on the L2 Steinbergers. Pretty ingenious. I remember that the neck was insanely wide compared to my (almost unplayable) Quantum. The other Foderas floating around at the time were Monarchs-PJ configuration EMGs. Percy Jones had moved to NYC and was using a fretless one (he may have been their first endorser).
The Fender-type aftermarket necks and bodies started showing up in the late 1980s with Schecter being the first that was really available shortly followed by Warmoth and ESP in the early 70s. It seems to me that some of those early Schecters had the Tele-type headstock that ESPs later did. Sadly, you could still get 60s era P and J basses for next to nothing, so they were used in many a FrankenFender experiment. If we'd only known....
I was off by a couple of years-Michael Sciuto was the bassist who won the Guitar Player Magazine Solo Soundpage Competition in 1986. He was playing an early Brubaker.
The only Fodera's I've ever seen that come even close to the Fender World are the NYC J-basses.

 

[Roy Vogt]

Simple. That bass is a mattadeer.

What's a mattadeer?
Oh nothing, hon, just lost in thought.....

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

It appears you don't have the same issue with deeming someone a liar prior to having actual proof of it that I do.

If you don't know everything, your known "parameters" frankly suck. so far nobody here knows everything about that bass.

The seller listed the bass as a Fodera. The bass looked nothing like a Fodera, and in fact had features of another bass. What more is there to know?

And let me play devil's advocate for a moment, and suppose the bass really was built by Vinnie Fodera--that does not a Fodera it make. Fodera is a brand, with a level of expectation assigned to the name (and value related to that expectation/reputation/exclusivity). Selling a bass that is not a Fodera as a "Fodera" is disingenuous at best. Now, if you are willing to accept a nod and a wink as proof enough in instances like this, that is your prerogative. However, you really can't presume that other people will cling to such low standards of expectation.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The seller listed the bass as a Fodera. The bass looked nothing like a Fodera, and in fact had features of another bass. What more is there to know?

And let me play devil's advocate for a moment, and suppose the bass really was built by Vinnie Fodera--that does not a Fodera it make. Fodera is a brand, with a level of expectation assigned to the name (and value related to that expectation/reputation/exclusivity). Selling a bass that is not a Fodera as a "Fodera" is disingenuous at best. Now, if you are willing to accept a nod and a wink as proof enough in instances like this, that is your prerogative. However, you really can't presume that other people will cling to such low standards of expectation.

Some people just love to go off and running on anything (or better yet, nothing).


What proof did i accept? I'll give you plenty of time to think about that.

While you ponder that, what kind of bass would a bass built by Vinnie Fodera be? A Parker? People were positive a bass built by Ken Parker couldn't have been for Anthony Jackson... and they were wrong.


OMG the bass has features of another bass. You're serious, aren't you? What more is there to know? Well, for you, clearly nothing. For me, the facts that I don't know about the piece. The facts other people have mentioned that they don't know either. Even some people who don't think it's real (I don't lean towards it being real... but I don't "know". Which is why I wouldn't leave my butt hanging out over such flimsy evidence. Like some.

Let's take your devil's advocate one step further... Vinny comes on and states that he built it and as such it's an early Fodera. Do you explain to him why he's wrong?


Did you figure out what proof I accepted yet?

 

[Smurf-o-Deth]

Some people just love to go off and running on anything (or better yet, nothing).


What proof did i accept? I'll give you plenty of time to think about that.

While you ponder that, what kind of bass would a bass built by Vinnie Fodera be? A Parker? People were positive a bass built by Ken Parker couldn't have been for Anthony Jackson... and they were wrong.


OMG the bass has features of another bass. You're serious, aren't you? What more is there to know? Well, for you, clearly nothing. For me, the facts that I don't know about the piece. The facts other people have mentioned that they don't know either. Even some people who don't think it's real (I don't lean towards it being real... but I don't "know". Which is why I wouldn't leave my butt hanging out over such flimsy evidence. Like some.

Let's take your devil's advocate one step further... Vinny comes on and states that he built it and as such it's an early Fodera. Do you explain to him why he's wrong?


Did you figure out what proof I accepted yet?

Point one: I never claimed you accepted anything, I merely presented a conditional. Let me rephrase, then, since semantics is the game, replacing you with one: If one is willing to accept a nod and a wink as proof enough in instances like this, that is one's prerogative.

Point two: mock disdain at alien features doesn't discount the stated, primary issue that the bass did not look like a Fodera. Again, semantics is the game, and I'll repost what I typed before, and encourage you to read the statement in its entirety: the bass looked nothing like a Fodera, and in fact had features of another bass. I underlined the pertinent part for your convenience.

Point three: a pre-Fodera bass built by Vinne Fodera would be...a pre-Fodera bass built by Vinnie Fodera. Mike Tobias helped design the Lakland Hollowbody; does that make it an MTD? What about Gibson-era Tobias basses? Mr. Tobias had no part in those basses, so what are they? In that vein, Fodera the company (and, more specifically, the product) is not the same as Vinnie Fodera, despite the obvious manner in which they are related. And, if Mr. Fodera were to proclaim the bass in question as a Fodera, who would I be to argue? He can make that call. I can't, you can't, and some random guy on eBay can't, however. Not without proof, that is.

Which brings me to my final point, one I will reiterate: I have no dog in this race. I didn't contact the guy, or eBay. I really don't care. My issue was with the position that, somehow, people thinking the bass not to be a genuine Fodera bass (and being presented with no evidence to contradict their reasoning) were somehow being unreasonable. The burden of proof was on the seller, and there certainly was never any sufficient proof presented, so anyone was within their rights to use the eBay system to have the listing removed as misleading (or worse).

 

[Brad Johnson]

Point one: I never claimed you accepted anything, I merely presented a conditional. Let me rephrase, then, since semantics is the game, replacing you with one: If one is willing to accept a nod and a wink as proof enough in instances like this, that is one's prerogative.

"Now, if you are willing to accept a nod and a wink as proof enough in instances like this, that is your prerogative".

And the conditional was based on nothing I said. That's called "pointless" in most circles. This is no semantics games, your poor wording (or loic) is completely on you. But of course point the finger elsewhere.

Point two: mock disdain at alien features doesn't discount the stated, primary issue that the bass did not look like a Fodera. Again, semantics is the game, and I'll repost what I typed before, and encourage you to read the statement in its entirety: the bass looked nothing like a Fodera, and in fact had features of another bass. I underlined the pertinent part for your convenience.

Many luthiers' early work don't look like later models.

Point three: a pre-Fodera bass built by Vinne Fodera would be...a pre-Fodera bass built by Vinnie Fodera. Mike Tobias helped design the Lakland Hollowbody; does that make it an MTD?

The bass he designed FOR LAKLAND? If you really think that has any bearing in this situation... wow. What company did Fodera build the ebay bass FOR?


BTW I didn't realize his name used to be Vinny pre-Fodera. Glad he started the company.

What about Gibson-era Tobias basses? Mr. Tobias had no part in those basses, so what are they?

So your point is they AREN'T Tobiases?

You're really not very good at this.

In that vein, Fodera the company (and, more specifically, the product) is not the same as Vinnie Fodera, despite the obvious manner in which they are related. And, if Mr. Fodera were to proclaim the bass in question as a Fodera, who would I be to argue? He can make that call. I can't, you can't, and some random guy on eBay can't, however. Not without proof, that is.

But you are making the call. No one else. No conclusive proof and you've decided that even if he did build it, it's not a Fodera... unless he says it's a Fodera. And he hasn't said it isn't one.



Like I said... not very good at this. At all.

Which brings me to my final point, one I will reiterate: I have no dog in this race. I didn't contact the guy, or eBay. I really don't care. My issue was with the position that, somehow, people thinking the bass not to be a genuine Fodera bass (and being presented with no evidence to contradict their reasoning) were somehow being unreasonable. The burden of proof was on the seller, and there certainly was never any sufficient proof presented, so anyone was within their rights to use the eBay system to have the listing removed as misleading (or worse).

If you really don't care and you're going to refuse to look at this logically and objectively.. why are you even here?


People merely not thinking it was a Fodera weren't unreasonable. That clearly was not the issue I was addressing. If it stopped there things would've been fine. It didn't.

I have no dog in this race either. I stated what I'd hope would be some common sense observations (turns out they're seriously alternative thinking to many) about not jumping the gun with accusations. It happens frequently with people who for whatever reasons would rather leap then look.


It never worked for Wile E. Coyote. Maybe you guys are special.

 

[willsellout]

LOL at this thread.

 

[thepontif]

What's a mattadeer?
Oh nothing, hon, just lost in thought.....

THANK YOU!!!!!