Your right. I wasn't thinking. as usual. I am lucky to be in an area where I can try them.
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Club Alleva Coppolo (part 2)
- Thread starter john turner
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Your right. I wasn't thinking. as usual. I am lucky to be in an area where I can try them.
I NEED one just like yours to match my 4!!! LOL! I keep telling myself that I have enough....I have enough....I almost bought another Sadowsky last night and I have 4 now...so in other words, I am not totally ruling it out yet...
Peace,
T
I dont think you'll be let down...as you know after having a 5er yourself.
+1 on both Ken (or is that more appropriately +2?).
It's way easier to tell when a bass is definitely not my thing. However, truly good instruments tend to make you evolve into them, and it's a matter of time and gigs before you can decide whether the evolutionary process will work out.
I literally stumbled into my AC bass - and its all because I bought a Fodera from Mitch (basses55). Bought the Fodera NYC from him and loved it so much that I bought a second 4 string Emperor from Virginia. Played them both hours a day all this past summer, and at the end of that time decided that though they were beautiful playing and sounding basses, neither was quite right for me. That process took weeks, with literally dozens of gigs and rehearsals.
Fast forward to November of 2007 - still looking for "the" bass, and because I'm on holidays and a little bored, I call Jimmy, because I remember Mitch mentioning AC in the summer, have been reading this thread for a bit, and have checked out the Paul Turner clips on You Tube, and become a bit of a Jamiroquai buff.
Jimmy and I get talking about what kind of playing I mostly do, and he says something like "well I think an LG-5 would suit you, but I do have this new bass I just built..." and he goes on to describe the RA-5. It sounds like a great solution for me. Jimmy asks me how I found out about him, and I say, well this guy in Toronto told me about him. He says "you mean Mitch - that's really funny, he playing his new LG-5 not 10 feet away". So I talk with Mitch, and he talks with Jimmy, and I talk with Jimmy, and 12 hours later the RA-5 is on it's way to Toronto with the understanding that if I don't like it, I will send it back and Jimmy will build me an LG-5.
The RA-5 arrives. It's pretty awesome, but has a bit of a "zingy" sound. I practice with it for a week - it sounds and feels more wicked every time. I play a big band gig with it - it sounds wicked. I play a rock/blues gig with it - it sounds wicked. I play some rehearsals and a musical with it - it sounds wicked. Mitch comes over, takes a screwdriver to it and plays it for a couple of hours and it sounds and feels more wicked. In fact, Mitch played this bass at BPL (so did many others I'm guessing) but he didn't take to it there. Ask him how he feels about it now
The point of this lengthy post is that trying before you buy helps, but it really takes a little longer than that before you can tell whether or not a bass is going to work well for you over the long haul. I've owned (as we all have) a number of basses over the past 35 years, and only two of them stayed with me for long periods - a 1981 Spector NS2, and 1992 Sadowsky NYC. The Spector is long gone, and the Sadowsky went this fall with the previously mentioned Foderas, fine basses that only lasted with me for a few months.
For me this Alleva Coppolo is the real deal, but I would never have have known that had I not taken a bit of a gamble.
Yup...unless the manufacturer will lend you something for a bit of time ..its still not definitive whether it stays or goes IME...so there's risk every time (Sadowsky's policy is very cool though!). However, if you do get to at least PLAY one before in any context it can go a "long way" in ruling out something I think!
Some of this is just luck too:
The bass in question above ( George's (exohntr)) although seemed like a nice bass when I got to played it in NY...with Zon strings on it...turned into a monster bass when it got to Toronto and had a change of strings and a bit of adjustment/set up. Even when you do play something in advance they are not all tweaked to their sweetest spots, or they've moved..pup heights and string gauges/tensions, make of strings etc can make a bass or break it on the other end. That said, I still prefer to play one, or as many, as I can of any instrument I'm thinking of if I can.
Well George..glad you have "your " bass after all that! I feel like its part of my extended family now..lol (I'll call before I visit ok?)
M
thx- its all Jimmy and his concept coming together.
I'm sure you are going to like yours too Bernie.
M
Man, if I see one more post about how ugly the A-C headstock is, I'm going to hurt someone.......People keep relating the headstock to the rest of the bass (ugly headstock =a lame bass)..why? I'm not fond of Warwick shaped bodies, but I wouldn't dare say they suck or that I don't see what the hooplah is all about when it comes to them.....really are we buying basses for tone possibilities or are we buying them so that we look hip with a cool looking bass?........
I just spent virtually the entire day playing almost all of my basses, cabs, heads, pres etc....and I've got to say I had a great time and actually learned a lot! I am going to do another post about it with some of my findings but I wanted to post a little something about my AC here. As many of you know I opted for the Dalbergia Negra board on mine and I have been trying to determine just "what" it does for the bass if anything. I have had my theories in the past and I have made some observations about boards in general but I spent the day today focused primarily on the basses I want to keep and what to get rid of and whether the T-Funk was REALLY as great as I thought it was at first and whether it REALLY ended my DB750 lust once and for all....
First of all I have a Radial switching box that allows me to switch 2 different amps through one speaker cab so I set up the rig so I could go from the T-Funk TF-750 to the DB750 through either my NV610 or NV215 ( I tried a number of cabs but kept coming back to these 2). I also ran my bass through my Neve 8801 Preamp (basically a channel from a Neve 88R recording console). I left the EQ FLAT on both amps and used a measurement mic into my console to measure and match the output from the 2 amps so as to minimize any gain differences.
Once the rig was set up I pulled out basses. Among them, a US Bob Glaub, 3 Sadowskys, my Alleva Standard 3TS , 3 of my Warwicks, a MM Stingray 4, and an Old Spector I haven't played in a while. I had 2 guys from my current project there most of the time just kind of giving me opinions and helping me to decide what I was going to keep for what we are doing. I started out with a Sadowsky RV5 that I just got today because I REALLY wanted to hear it and I had not heard it before and thought it would be a good blind for me to judge the sound of the amps as well. VERY nice warm and fairly rounded tone through both amps (one of the guys was doing the switching between the amps so I had no way for my perceptions to cloud my judgement) One amp was obviously clearer and airier?? than the other and the more we switched back and forth the more apparent it was. I picked up my Sadowsky MV5 (which I am very familiar with) and WOW! I was blown away with how good it sounded! (I was playing through the NV215 during this time) Very punchy and clear with a tight bottom and sweet upper mids! I played through both amps and began to prefer one of the other and asked to just stay on that one for a bit and switched to the Glaub and there it was! Snarling P bass MOJO! The guitar player said Now THAT is what a bass is supposed to sound like. Very thick Duck Dunn/Willie Weeks kind of vibe. Switched bak over to the other amp and was feeling a little concerned because it just did not sound as good as the other, checked to make sure everything was Kosher, plugged into it direct into the speaker (bypassing the switching box) and it was the same....
SO I picked up the Sadowsky PJ and was BLOWN AWAY! KILLER P bass tone and a GREAT PJ tone...I don't care for the slap tone in the center position but what a great finger tone....Switched back and forth between the amps and made the decision to just hook up the favorite bypassing the Switcher....
Bottom Line, The Thunderfunk TF750 KILLED the DB750! I was stunned! I could not believe that I had bought and lost my a$$ on 5 of these amps thinking they were my grail and now the T-Funk was just killing it. More warmth, more depth, more air, more clarity, more punch, and the SIZE.....Oh the SIZE of the notes is just awesome!! Needless to say, I may be selling a DB750 with NOS Telefunkens (that I just put in a couple of weeks ago) all around!
I played a few more basses and finally the other guy says play my bass man! Come on play MY bass...He (he is the Sax Player and Lead vocalist) LOVES the Alleva and has said a few times he thought it was the best sounding bass he has ever heard. He ALWAYS calls me before a rehearsal or a gig and tells me to bring "his" bass. I plugged it in and BAM! It was literally like playing through a whole different level of rig or something! It was so different from the others that we first thought something was wrong. I had not changed anything other than the pre gain to keep the out level consistent from bass to bass but MAN it was unbelievable how much difference there was over the other basses!
The Guitar player said that it was almost like that bass was "alive" or something. There was some kind of essence that was in the Alleva that was not present in ANY of the other basses. We all noticed that the note bends and ghost notes were MUCH more pronounced and everything I did just came out more with the Alleva. I don't know whether to attribute it to the board wood or not but I had Maple, Morado, Rosewood, Bubinga, Wenge, Ebony, and Northern Ash Boards, and NOTHING was even close to what I was getting from the Alleva. I was getting so much more back from the neck and the "feel" that was there was just amazing. The more I played the more I realized that there was something magical about the sum of the parts of this bass! I have played it for a while now but never in a real critical listening type of environment until today. The consensus was that it was THE BASS....PERIOD! Not the best bass I played today, but the best bass they have ever heard me play. The singer and I go back over 30 years so this is pretty special! I felt like the bass was breathing with me and was alive, I don't know any other way to describe it. Like I said, I don't know for sure whether the board had anything to do wth it or not but I am convinced it did.
I HIGHLY recommend that you talk to Jimmy about this option if you are considering one and ask him if anything I said makes any sense at all. I would also be curious to know if anybody else has had any kind of experience like this...
EDIT - I got a PM asking me what was different about the AC and in short everything. The bass was clearer sounding, there was more sonic information, there was a warmth and an organic "life" to it. It is very hard to put into words. Imagine hearing 2 distinct sounds and thinking that they were both pretty close in that context but then hearing them side by side through the same playback mechanism and one just seems to open up and there is "more" of everything about that sound. Not just that a blanket has been lifted off of it, but more like a hundred blankets have been lifted off of it. I am not talking about volume, remember matched output level, same preamp, same amp, same speaker, same cables, same everything EXCEPT the bass. I really don't have the words to describe the difference. I have owned a number of Vintage Fenders in my day and NONE of them ever sounded or maybe I should say "felt" anything like this. There was an actual feeling to the sound that was coming out of it. Like I said earlier, the difference was so profound and amazing that we rechecked our signal flow thinking we must have hit a button or moved a cable or something to account for that much of a difference. I know there are ALWAYS going to be subtle differences between even very similar instruments but there was NOTHING subtle about the difference we were hearing. For what it's worth, I have had an Alleva with a Beautiful Honduran Rosewood board and my Modern 4 had a Maple board and neither of them sounded ANYTHING close to this one. Better is too subjective because as Mikebass can attest, his LG5 sounds friggin amazing! There is just something different and amazing about the sound of this bass and the only thing I can attribute it to is the combination of the love that Jimmy put into it and the Dalbergia. It has the SAME PUPS, Preamp, body wood and hardware as anything he is making. The ONLY difference is the Dalbergia and it blows my mind....I don't know if that helps or not....
SO what did I decide from my testing...
The US Glaub, and the RV5 will be up for sale or trade.
The NV610 will be up for sale or trade. (YES, the combination of the Neve, the TF750 and the NV215 is THAT good!)
The DB750 will be up for sale or trade. (See above...)
The EA Iamp800, NM410, and NL210 will be up for sale or trade. (truly great products just not the sound I am after. I am all about that Vintage with a FAT bottom sound)
The Demeter VTDB-2B will probably be up for sale or trade. (One of the best DI's in existence but the Neve just KILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I have FAR too much stuff sitting around collecting dust. (See above)
I have some REALLY good friends. (and Phenomenal musicians to boot)
I am VERY lucky to have the gear I have. (thank you Jesus)
I am VERY lucky that Jimmy put everything he had into making me THE BASS I will take to my grave. (I actually think I could kiss you if I ever got close enough!)
I am VERY lucky that I have a family that allows me the freedom to do the things that I truly love to do. (I am a bit of a challenge to deal with MOST of the time)
Peace,
T
First of all I have a Radial switching box that allows me to switch 2 different amps through one speaker cab so I set up the rig so I could go from the T-Funk TF-750 to the DB750 through either my NV610 or NV215 ( I tried a number of cabs but kept coming back to these 2). I also ran my bass through my Neve 8801 Preamp (basically a channel from a Neve 88R recording console). I left the EQ FLAT on both amps and used a measurement mic into my console to measure and match the output from the 2 amps so as to minimize any gain differences.
Once the rig was set up I pulled out basses. Among them, a US Bob Glaub, 3 Sadowskys, my Alleva Standard 3TS , 3 of my Warwicks, a MM Stingray 4, and an Old Spector I haven't played in a while. I had 2 guys from my current project there most of the time just kind of giving me opinions and helping me to decide what I was going to keep for what we are doing. I started out with a Sadowsky RV5 that I just got today because I REALLY wanted to hear it and I had not heard it before and thought it would be a good blind for me to judge the sound of the amps as well. VERY nice warm and fairly rounded tone through both amps (one of the guys was doing the switching between the amps so I had no way for my perceptions to cloud my judgement) One amp was obviously clearer and airier?? than the other and the more we switched back and forth the more apparent it was. I picked up my Sadowsky MV5 (which I am very familiar with) and WOW! I was blown away with how good it sounded! (I was playing through the NV215 during this time) Very punchy and clear with a tight bottom and sweet upper mids! I played through both amps and began to prefer one of the other and asked to just stay on that one for a bit and switched to the Glaub and there it was! Snarling P bass MOJO! The guitar player said Now THAT is what a bass is supposed to sound like. Very thick Duck Dunn/Willie Weeks kind of vibe. Switched bak over to the other amp and was feeling a little concerned because it just did not sound as good as the other, checked to make sure everything was Kosher, plugged into it direct into the speaker (bypassing the switching box) and it was the same....
SO I picked up the Sadowsky PJ and was BLOWN AWAY! KILLER P bass tone and a GREAT PJ tone...I don't care for the slap tone in the center position but what a great finger tone....Switched back and forth between the amps and made the decision to just hook up the favorite bypassing the Switcher....
Bottom Line, The Thunderfunk TF750 KILLED the DB750! I was stunned! I could not believe that I had bought and lost my a$$ on 5 of these amps thinking they were my grail and now the T-Funk was just killing it. More warmth, more depth, more air, more clarity, more punch, and the SIZE.....Oh the SIZE of the notes is just awesome!! Needless to say, I may be selling a DB750 with NOS Telefunkens (that I just put in a couple of weeks ago) all around!
I played a few more basses and finally the other guy says play my bass man! Come on play MY bass...He (he is the Sax Player and Lead vocalist) LOVES the Alleva and has said a few times he thought it was the best sounding bass he has ever heard. He ALWAYS calls me before a rehearsal or a gig and tells me to bring "his" bass. I plugged it in and BAM! It was literally like playing through a whole different level of rig or something! It was so different from the others that we first thought something was wrong. I had not changed anything other than the pre gain to keep the out level consistent from bass to bass but MAN it was unbelievable how much difference there was over the other basses!
The Guitar player said that it was almost like that bass was "alive" or something. There was some kind of essence that was in the Alleva that was not present in ANY of the other basses. We all noticed that the note bends and ghost notes were MUCH more pronounced and everything I did just came out more with the Alleva. I don't know whether to attribute it to the board wood or not but I had Maple, Morado, Rosewood, Bubinga, Wenge, Ebony, and Northern Ash Boards, and NOTHING was even close to what I was getting from the Alleva. I was getting so much more back from the neck and the "feel" that was there was just amazing. The more I played the more I realized that there was something magical about the sum of the parts of this bass! I have played it for a while now but never in a real critical listening type of environment until today. The consensus was that it was THE BASS....PERIOD! Not the best bass I played today, but the best bass they have ever heard me play. The singer and I go back over 30 years so this is pretty special! I felt like the bass was breathing with me and was alive, I don't know any other way to describe it. Like I said, I don't know for sure whether the board had anything to do wth it or not but I am convinced it did.
I HIGHLY recommend that you talk to Jimmy about this option if you are considering one and ask him if anything I said makes any sense at all. I would also be curious to know if anybody else has had any kind of experience like this...
EDIT - I got a PM asking me what was different about the AC and in short everything. The bass was clearer sounding, there was more sonic information, there was a warmth and an organic "life" to it. It is very hard to put into words. Imagine hearing 2 distinct sounds and thinking that they were both pretty close in that context but then hearing them side by side through the same playback mechanism and one just seems to open up and there is "more" of everything about that sound. Not just that a blanket has been lifted off of it, but more like a hundred blankets have been lifted off of it. I am not talking about volume, remember matched output level, same preamp, same amp, same speaker, same cables, same everything EXCEPT the bass. I really don't have the words to describe the difference. I have owned a number of Vintage Fenders in my day and NONE of them ever sounded or maybe I should say "felt" anything like this. There was an actual feeling to the sound that was coming out of it. Like I said earlier, the difference was so profound and amazing that we rechecked our signal flow thinking we must have hit a button or moved a cable or something to account for that much of a difference. I know there are ALWAYS going to be subtle differences between even very similar instruments but there was NOTHING subtle about the difference we were hearing. For what it's worth, I have had an Alleva with a Beautiful Honduran Rosewood board and my Modern 4 had a Maple board and neither of them sounded ANYTHING close to this one. Better is too subjective because as Mikebass can attest, his LG5 sounds friggin amazing! There is just something different and amazing about the sound of this bass and the only thing I can attribute it to is the combination of the love that Jimmy put into it and the Dalbergia. It has the SAME PUPS, Preamp, body wood and hardware as anything he is making. The ONLY difference is the Dalbergia and it blows my mind....I don't know if that helps or not....
SO what did I decide from my testing...
The US Glaub, and the RV5 will be up for sale or trade.
The NV610 will be up for sale or trade. (YES, the combination of the Neve, the TF750 and the NV215 is THAT good!)
The DB750 will be up for sale or trade. (See above...)
The EA Iamp800, NM410, and NL210 will be up for sale or trade. (truly great products just not the sound I am after. I am all about that Vintage with a FAT bottom sound)
The Demeter VTDB-2B will probably be up for sale or trade. (One of the best DI's in existence but the Neve just KILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!)
I have FAR too much stuff sitting around collecting dust. (See above)
I have some REALLY good friends. (and Phenomenal musicians to boot)
I am VERY lucky to have the gear I have. (thank you Jesus)
I am VERY lucky that Jimmy put everything he had into making me THE BASS I will take to my grave. (I actually think I could kiss you if I ever got close enough!)
I am VERY lucky that I have a family that allows me the freedom to do the things that I truly love to do. (I am a bit of a challenge to deal with MOST of the time)
Peace,
T
What an AWESOME, Awesome post Tom! Your methods were very well done. I like the way you were both scientific but also subjective while maintaining unbiased opinions. (blind testing)
And you suck for making me want Dalbergia for my 3T LG5. Still don't think I can come up with the coin. So you especially suck for making me want it!
...But I respect and admire you just the same.
While you did have an LG5 with a different board, the other difference is that it was a 5 string bass compared with your LG4. Not sure how much difference neck / fingerboard mass plays into the equation, but that does consitute another difference. Oh, and the LG5 was Poly finish and your LG4 is Nitro ....correct? Again, another difference that may factor into tonal variations. Perhaps the Nitro finish explains some of the organic 'breathing' comments?
And you suck for making me want Dalbergia for my 3T LG5. Still don't think I can come up with the coin. So you especially suck for making me want it!
...But I respect and admire you just the same. While you did have an LG5 with a different board, the other difference is that it was a 5 string bass compared with your LG4. Not sure how much difference neck / fingerboard mass plays into the equation, but that does consitute another difference. Oh, and the LG5 was Poly finish and your LG4 is Nitro ....correct? Again, another difference that may factor into tonal variations. Perhaps the Nitro finish explains some of the organic 'breathing' comments?
What an AWESOME, Awesome post Tom! Your methods were very well done. I like the way you were both scientific but also subjective while maintaining unbiased opinions. (blind testing)
And you suck for making me want Dalbergia for my 3T LG5. Still don't think I can come up with the coin. So you especially suck for making me want it!
While you did have an LG5 with a different board, the other difference is that it was a 5 string bass compared with your LG4. Not sure how much difference neck / fingerboard mass plays into the equation, but that does consitute another difference. Oh, and the LG5 was Poly finish and your LG4 is Nitro ....correct? Again, another difference that may factor into tonal variations. Perhaps the Nitro finish explains some of the organic 'breathing' comments?
+1... even with 'identical' basses (same wood, same pickups, etc., etc.) there are lot's of sound differences. Attributing the tone difference from one bass to another to one component is usually not accurate, even if those basses are otherwise identical. In this case, there were numerous differences.
That's not to say that the expensive RW board is not worth every penny for the 'cool' factor, etc., and I'm sure it sounds great. However, no one would be dissapointed in one of Jimmy's 'standard' RW boards. IMO!
Also, from the posts by the guys who refinish their FBasses from Nitro to Poly and hear no difference, that too seems to be more of an aesthetic choice than a tonal choice from my experience.
That being said, I can totally dig a Nitro finished Alleva with that expensive board... that makes for a very special vibe that goes beyond pure 'tone'.
IMO!
Although I have absolutely zero to back up my claims.....
I think the devil is in the details. I would never claim to tell the difference in a blind fold test, nor could I pick which bass is which in a live mix. But, I think that everything affects tone to some degree. Maybe it is minute, but once you add up all those minute differences, you have something that is greater than the sum of it's parts. There are classic examples that are the extreme--for example, an ash body J with a maple neck has a charactoristic tone. We all know there is a difference between that and alder/rosewood. Could any of us really, with 100% certainty, pick it out in the mix? Probably not, but the recipe is there and it makes a huge difference, at least for me, when I'm playing. I find that I alter my technique when playing a brighter bass.
What's my point? I'm not sure. But I feel that the Brazilian board and nitro finish might not be THE reason that a bass sounds good, but it certainly is a factor. When getting into the nitty-gritty, I don't think that you can isolate one aspect (fingerboard, finish) of the bass. I think you need to look at the bass as a whole and each part works together to deliver the resultant tone.
A Brazilian board might not make a whole lot of difference on a bass with an Aguilar preamp and EMG pickups. I feel that on an Alleva Coppolo, more so than other basses, the woods contribute more to the tone. That is, from what I've read, part of the philosphy of the AC basses. If Jimmy just dismissed some of these minute details (old growth wood, hand wound pickups, larger headstock, thinner finishes, natural preamp, etc.), would the basses still have the same vibe? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they would still be well made, meticulous bass, but would they deliver the classic vintage pre-CBS Fender vibe?
Again, this is just speculation. I have nothing to back this up.......
I think the devil is in the details. I would never claim to tell the difference in a blind fold test, nor could I pick which bass is which in a live mix. But, I think that everything affects tone to some degree. Maybe it is minute, but once you add up all those minute differences, you have something that is greater than the sum of it's parts. There are classic examples that are the extreme--for example, an ash body J with a maple neck has a charactoristic tone. We all know there is a difference between that and alder/rosewood. Could any of us really, with 100% certainty, pick it out in the mix? Probably not, but the recipe is there and it makes a huge difference, at least for me, when I'm playing. I find that I alter my technique when playing a brighter bass.
What's my point? I'm not sure. But I feel that the Brazilian board and nitro finish might not be THE reason that a bass sounds good, but it certainly is a factor. When getting into the nitty-gritty, I don't think that you can isolate one aspect (fingerboard, finish) of the bass. I think you need to look at the bass as a whole and each part works together to deliver the resultant tone.
A Brazilian board might not make a whole lot of difference on a bass with an Aguilar preamp and EMG pickups. I feel that on an Alleva Coppolo, more so than other basses, the woods contribute more to the tone. That is, from what I've read, part of the philosphy of the AC basses. If Jimmy just dismissed some of these minute details (old growth wood, hand wound pickups, larger headstock, thinner finishes, natural preamp, etc.), would the basses still have the same vibe? Don't get me wrong, I'm sure they would still be well made, meticulous bass, but would they deliver the classic vintage pre-CBS Fender vibe?
Again, this is just speculation. I have nothing to back this up.......
I would be the first one to agree with everything you said. However, I am not talking about tone here. I never even mentioned the word tone and that is why it is so difficult to put into words what I am hearing and feeling. IMO tone is PURELY in the eye of the beholder and is something that really can not be quantified. There will always be tonal differences in EVERY bass. I think that should go without saying. What I am really talking about here is something else entirely. The AC was literally more alive than the other bases.
I am not saying that one sounded better than the others in as much as I am saying that this particular bass had a completely different vibe than the rest of them. It was a much more open and full sound across the entire frequency spectrum we were hearing. There was detail from the bottom all the way up to the top that was not present on any of the other basses. There was an airier quality to it and just "something" a VERY audible and profound "something" that I can't account for that was present in this particular bass. I freely admit that this is something that I have never experienced before and I really don't have any explanation for it. I am not trying to get anybody to go out and drop the coin for the Negra, I am just trying to answer the question that I have been asked in numerous PM's in a way that everybody can see.
The best advice I can give is talk to Jimmy about it and ask him if I am nuts or some of this makes sense. I never would have believed it if I had not heard it for myself and I am just amazed at the difference that I hear. Hope that clarifies it some.
Peace,
T
+1... my Blue Celinder falls into this category IMO and IME. Everyone that plays it is like 'whoa'.... just a certain feel and depth of tone that the other Celinder's I've played (identically spec'd... same wood, hw, etc.) don't seem to have.... they all sound great, but they all sound different.... that's the wonder and frustration of using wood to make instruments
Tom Bowlus has a Celinder Vintage (I think) P Bass 4 that's the same way... you play a note and it's just stunning.... very rare to come across an instrument that special...1 in a 1000 IMO and IME.It sounds like you have a very special bass there... it's just hard to identify 'why'. Even among the very consistent Sadowsky basses with that high tolerance CNC sort of manufacturing, I've played some that just seems to 'sing', and others that are just 'OK', even with seemingly identical specs.
TheOldFlatwound
Supporting Member
+1... my Blue Celinder falls into this category IMO and IME. Everyone that plays it is like 'whoa'.... just a certain feel and depth of tone that the other Celinder's I've played (identically spec'd... same wood, hw, etc.) don't seem to have.... they all sound great, but they all sound different.... that's the wonder and frustration of using wood to make instruments
It sounds like you have a very special bass there... it's just hard to identify 'why'. Even among the very consistent Sadowsky basses with that high tolerance CNC sort of manufacturing, I've played some that just seems to 'sing', and others that are just 'OK', even with seemingly identical specs.
i think that's exactly right--it's a 1 in a 1000--any of these really high quality basses are going to be very nice, but the are a few that are a bit better. I've owned several alder/rosewood jazz basses over the years, and they all sound different--even ones by the same maker. i think finding "the one" that appeals to you and has that special thing is the deal. whether it's the weight, the finish, fingerboard wood, shape of the neck, whatever.
svtb15
Inactive
- Mar 22, 2004
- 13,004
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- Disclosures
- I play it all. Whatever works for the gig. Q+
i know exactly how you feel.. my kbp4 is the same way.... i have engineers ask me to bring that bass to a gig or session,, drummers ask me too.... thats my sonic blue bass with my dogs name Poudah carved in the back of it.. nothing feels as good as that bass to me... it kills
What an AWESOME, Awesome post Tom! Your methods were very well done. I like the way you were both scientific but also subjective while maintaining unbiased opinions. (blind testing)
And you suck for making me want Dalbergia for my 3T LG5. Still don't think I can come up with the coin. So you especially suck for making me want it!
While you did have an LG5 with a different board, the other difference is that it was a 5 string bass compared with your LG4. Not sure how much difference neck / fingerboard mass plays into the equation, but that does consitute another difference. Oh, and the LG5 was Poly finish and your LG4 is Nitro ....correct? Again, another difference that may factor into tonal variations. Perhaps the Nitro finish explains some of the organic 'breathing' comments?
I think I am doing a poor job of trying to get across what I heard...
See the thing is that I had all these basses right there with me. 4 Strings, 5 strings, different neck and body woods, and the AC was just head and shoulders "different" from the others. While I am comparing the 3 AC's from memory, I am not talking about tonal differences here. I am talking about something entirely different. It is not a question of balance or tone. I agree with the other poster about it being the sum of the parts. I think it is, in large part, a question of the sum of the parts. I also agree that it is possible that the guy who shoots the Nitro on these basses is even more of a master than I gave him credit for and the Nitro could be the key. However, I have had a LOT of Nitro Basses and still have some and none of them have had the quality that I am talking about here, even my Vintage Fenders did not have it. I really don't know what "it" is, but I am amazed by it. After rereading the above and Kens post, I realize that somehow you are equating what i am talking about with tone. I am really NOT talking about tonal differences, as I said EVERY bass will be tonally different. This goes beyond tone, beyond balance. I guess you would have to hear it to understand what I mean which is not a cop out, I just really don't know how to clearly explain it any better....Sorry!
Peace,
T
I agree with this but in this case I have played so many basses over time and even at the same sitting that I can't explain it away like this either. I think it could be that 1 in a million or something. I had a 62' Jazz that I always considered "the one" and it is the standard that I use to evaluate basses. This AC is just so far and above even that bass that I am struggling with the whys and hows of it I guess. I know that in the end all that really matters is that I have got an instrument that not only inspires me but the musicians around me...I guess I am just trying to put it out there in case anyone else is considering following the same path.
Peace,
T
I totally understand what you are saying.... I'm using 'tone' very generally as a proxy for timbre, feel, open-ness, response, etc., etc. Nitro....
.. probably not versus the thin poly being used today ( I am one who finds the idea of a 'Nitro' sound versus a 'Poly' sound kind of goofy).Sometimes everything just comes together.
I know what you mean... there's a certain 'bounce off the neck' on my blue Celinder that I've not experienced with any other bass, along with a low end combined with upper end sizzle that really magnifies the uber fast response in the 'feel' of that bass. Is that caused by the heavy ash body, the thick poly finish over the neck, the particular piece of maple used in the neck and board, the particular resonance of those particular pieces of wood to the voicing of the pre and pickups, the poly finish..... or is it just a magical combination of all or some of those things that fits with the strings I use, my personal playing style, the amp I use, and the tone I have 'in my head'. My guess is its the latter... just everything coming together!
Some basses are just 'special', and the ones that are seem to be identified as such by most who play them... very rare.
While my Alleva is my favorite bass, my feeling is that it is probably not a particularly 'special' one... but I love it none-the-less.
Man... that Dalbergia board would be so cool to have. I can't go with it on this bass but there's always a possibilty in the future.
+1, I can understand. This is how I feel about my Ken Smith BSR5J-MW. I've owned a ton of instruments, but nothing has been quite like my Ken Smith, and it is hard to explain. It goes beyond tone.
Thanks Tom. After re-reading, I better understand your portrayal and think I over generalized. It was perhaps unfair and inadequate to paraphrase and equate your findings to something as ambiguous and nebulous as 'tone'.
"Vibe", and overall "greatness exceeding the sum of the parts" is a concept I can grasp. Whether I can pick the same piece of gear accurately in a blind test or not, I still think your comparitive methods were awesome to minimize emotional/human attachments based on preconceived notions etc. It's always affirming when there are other 'ears' in the house to confirm or deny your findings as well. It's pretty amazing when it's like; .... "everyone drank the same kool-aid!" (So to speak. ) ... especially when they are sharing their own subjective opinions. LOL
It really is hard to encapsulate magical greatness into succint, concrete, quantifiable words isn't it?
Visually, your LG4 is just freaking amaaaazing! The whole (to my eyes) is clearly greater than the sum of the parts. As I said before, I never wanted a 3-tone sunburst bass before I saw yours. "Your LG4" continues to be the inspiration for the LG5 I ordered.
I even think; in a sea of Tort Pickguards, "yours" is special!
Thanks again Tom. You, and countless others continue to affirm that my decision to order an LG5 built from Jimmy's skilled and talented hands is a decision I will thank you for ...for a long, long time! August seems sooooo, so far away!
"Vibe", and overall "greatness exceeding the sum of the parts" is a concept I can grasp. Whether I can pick the same piece of gear accurately in a blind test or not, I still think your comparitive methods were awesome to minimize emotional/human attachments based on preconceived notions etc. It's always affirming when there are other 'ears' in the house to confirm or deny your findings as well. It's pretty amazing when it's like; .... "everyone drank the same kool-aid!" (So to speak. ) ... especially when they are sharing their own subjective opinions. LOL
It really is hard to encapsulate magical greatness into succint, concrete, quantifiable words isn't it?
Visually, your LG4 is just freaking amaaaazing! The whole (to my eyes) is clearly greater than the sum of the parts. As I said before, I never wanted a 3-tone sunburst bass before I saw yours. "Your LG4" continues to be the inspiration for the LG5 I ordered.
I even think; in a sea of Tort Pickguards, "yours" is special!
Thanks again Tom. You, and countless others continue to affirm that my decision to order an LG5 built from Jimmy's skilled and talented hands is a decision I will thank you for ...for a long, long time! August seems sooooo, so far away!
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