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Club Alleva Coppolo (part 2)

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Nice info, Jimmy. Thanks for chiming in as I will now be on the look out for basses with the grey'ish Brazilian RW Boards.



Roscoe, when I ordered my AC last year I asked him the same question. I don't presume to speak for Jimmy, but I can share with you what he said to me.

He likened the Brazilian to the mellow motown, Jamerson tone, and said something along the lines of it having more thump in the lows/low mids. He said the Indian and Honduran had more of the burp associated with more mids....if my memory serves me correctly. :)

Matt

Thanks Matt. Which AC did you get?
 
Here is something I found and posted in the First Alleva thread:


"Rosewood (Dalbergia …who, what…)

Rosewood is one hell of a broad description. Over the years, I have heard all kinds of substances being referred to as Rosewood. Legally you can just about call anything Rosewood including your uncle. I have seen Bubinga being sold as African Rosewood, which is nonsense. Even though this is an exceedingly fine species, it is not even related. True Rosewood is always called a Dalbergia…something or other. For instance:

Honduras Rosewood.........Dalbergia Stevensonii
Brazilian Rosewood.............Dalbergia Negra
Cocobolo…...........................Dalbergia Retusa
East Indian Rosewood....... Dalbergia Latifolia

To further confuse you African Blackwood is really...Dalbergia Melanoxylon and there are many more.
All this sounds a little like a petty political correctness issue. However, I assure you that it is not.
The reason why the botanists have assigned these names to this family of wood is that they are all related. Even though they grow in different parts of the World, they are brothers, sisters, cousins, aunties and uncles to one another. They share certain and very specific properties that only exist within in the Dalbergia family of timber species. Despite their diverse appearance, the expert can clearly recognize the grain patterns and pore structures that constitute genuine Rosewood. From experience or with the aid of a simple magnifying glass, it is possible for us to distinguish true Rosewood from your uncle. However, the most important property that we are interested in is the sonic response that is unique to Dalbergias. That is because nothing sounds like Rosewood. True Rosewood has been for hundreds of years the ultimate choice for instrument builders/ luthiers.
Its uncanny ability to represent all the highs, midrange and bass frequencies in balance is well documented. Because of its inherent stiffness, it facilitates tons of projection. Furthermore, it is sensitive to the lightest touch. For the reason, the use of Brazilian Rosewood for instance elevates the worth of a good Guitar by the thousands. Through my work with string instruments, I have become well aware of its aptitudes. Nevertheless, I had some initial reservations about the use of such a pricey material in the construction of a snare drum as I feared that it would provide diminishing marginal returns, “this being only a " Drum”. A snare uses at least 3 times the amount of material that is required for a Guitar’s Back and Sides. That is frequently expensive, often protected/restricted, and difficult Material to obtain. To add to the fun, this wood is tricky and unpredictable to work with. To fabricate this instrument with genuine Rosewood to the same scantlings requires a good 15 hrs more than any other Lunar shell. The challenge is that the Wood is too stiff to bend at the preferred thickness that is required for the 4 piece lay up. If sized thinner, I end up with more layers. That would translate into highly undesirable higher glue to wood ratio with less solid meat to shape the instrument for response. Eventually, we worked out the details of laying this very stiff and brittle timber in the 4 piece lay up with out changing the physics of the Lunar shell construction. This required a lot of forethought, serious retooling, and the extra time, however the playability of this Snare drum is, in my opinion unsurpassed. This is a sonic powerhouse. The Snare is exceptionally crisp, sensitive, and articulate.


The Balance between highs, lows and midrange is amazing. In many ways, it shares the same acoustic properties that high-end Rosewood guitars are prized for. Only one of these snares exists presently, located in Hawaii and owned by the person that commissioned me to build it. The expense of the material and the added time were reflected in the price. Unfortunately, I am only able to provide a quote for the Rosewood Lunar shells on an individual bases. In part, because there are so many Rosewoods and the cost and availability varies amongst them. Despite the challenges, I look forward to building many more of them and will continue to take chances, seek, and learn. All of these woods produce distinctively different Snare Drums. Nonetheless, all of them share the Lunar concept of design, construction, and craftsmanship. What they also have in common is that they all speak clearly in their own voices. It would be unjust to deem one snare better or worse than another. Only the individual player can make those choices based on his or her preferences."

END of the Article----


The main point here is that there are a LOT of "Rosewoods" out there but there really is ONLY 1 Dalbergia Negra which is the species name for "Brazillian" Rosewood. What this means is that ONLY Dalbergia Negra is real Brazillian Rosewood and you can't legally cut that anymore. Any other type of Rosewood is NOT Brazilian but some other species of Rosewood which is not necessarily an "inferior" rosewood it is just not true "Brazillian" Rosewood but some other species that has been labled "Brazilliian" at some point in the process.

To me the Dalbergia Negra feels softer, sounds warmer, and mine definitely has a chocolaty smell to it. My daughter was here when I opened the case and she said "Daddy your bass smells like a candy bar". As you can see in the pics the color is a real rich Dark Chocolate color and is absolutely beautiful. I compared it to the Sadowsky I have and the Brazillian on the Sadowsky is much Redder than the Alleva. The Brazillian on my Nordy is browner than the Alleva. Both appear drier. The Sadowsky sounds nothing like the Alleva when you tap the wood (both have maple necks and Alder bodies so I don't think that is the difference). If I had to guess I would say that the "Brazilian" Rosewood on all 3 are different species of wood and thus 2 of them are not Dalbergia Negra but some other species of Rosewood. The bottom line is that the ONLY Brazilliian Rosewood is Dalbergia Negra.

Hope that helps!

Peace,

T
 
Here is something I found and posted in the First Alleva thread:


"Rosewood (Dalbergia …who, what…)

Rosewood is one hell of a broad description. Over the years, I have heard all kinds of substances being referred to as Rosewood. Legally you can just about call anything Rosewood including your uncle. I have seen Bubinga being sold as African Rosewood, which is nonsense. Even though this is an exceedingly fine species, it is not even related. True Rosewood is always called a Dalbergia…something or other. For instance:

Honduras Rosewood.........Dalbergia Stevensonii
Brazilian Rosewood.............Dalbergia Negra
Cocobolo…...........................Dalbergia Retusa
East Indian Rosewood....... Dalbergia Latifolia

To further confuse you African Blackwood is really...Dalbergia Melanoxylon and there are many more.
All this sounds a little like a petty political correctness issue. However, I assure you that it is not.
The reason why the botanists have assigned these names to this family of wood is that they are all related. Even though they grow in different parts of the World, they are brothers, sisters, cousins, aunties and uncles to one another. They share certain and very specific properties that only exist within in the Dalbergia family of timber species. Despite their diverse appearance, the expert can clearly recognize the grain patterns and pore structures that constitute genuine Rosewood. From experience or with the aid of a simple magnifying glass, it is possible for us to distinguish true Rosewood from your uncle. However, the most important property that we are interested in is the sonic response that is unique to Dalbergias. That is because nothing sounds like Rosewood. True Rosewood has been for hundreds of years the ultimate choice for instrument builders/ luthiers.
Its uncanny ability to represent all the highs, midrange and bass frequencies in balance is well documented. Because of its inherent stiffness, it facilitates tons of projection. Furthermore, it is sensitive to the lightest touch. For the reason, the use of Brazilian Rosewood for instance elevates the worth of a good Guitar by the thousands. Through my work with string instruments, I have become well aware of its aptitudes. Nevertheless, I had some initial reservations about the use of such a pricey material in the construction of a snare drum as I feared that it would provide diminishing marginal returns, “this being only a " Drum”. A snare uses at least 3 times the amount of material that is required for a Guitar’s Back and Sides. That is frequently expensive, often protected/restricted, and difficult Material to obtain. To add to the fun, this wood is tricky and unpredictable to work with. To fabricate this instrument with genuine Rosewood to the same scantlings requires a good 15 hrs more than any other Lunar shell. The challenge is that the Wood is too stiff to bend at the preferred thickness that is required for the 4 piece lay up. If sized thinner, I end up with more layers. That would translate into highly undesirable higher glue to wood ratio with less solid meat to shape the instrument for response. Eventually, we worked out the details of laying this very stiff and brittle timber in the 4 piece lay up with out changing the physics of the Lunar shell construction. This required a lot of forethought, serious retooling, and the extra time, however the playability of this Snare drum is, in my opinion unsurpassed. This is a sonic powerhouse. The Snare is exceptionally crisp, sensitive, and articulate.


The Balance between highs, lows and midrange is amazing. In many ways, it shares the same acoustic properties that high-end Rosewood guitars are prized for. Only one of these snares exists presently, located in Hawaii and owned by the person that commissioned me to build it. The expense of the material and the added time were reflected in the price. Unfortunately, I am only able to provide a quote for the Rosewood Lunar shells on an individual bases. In part, because there are so many Rosewoods and the cost and availability varies amongst them. Despite the challenges, I look forward to building many more of them and will continue to take chances, seek, and learn. All of these woods produce distinctively different Snare Drums. Nonetheless, all of them share the Lunar concept of design, construction, and craftsmanship. What they also have in common is that they all speak clearly in their own voices. It would be unjust to deem one snare better or worse than another. Only the individual player can make those choices based on his or her preferences."

END of the Article----


The main point here is that there are a LOT of "Rosewoods" out there but there really is ONLY 1 Dalbergia Negra which is the species name for "Brazillian" Rosewood. What this means is that ONLY Dalbergia Negra is real Brazillian Rosewood and you can't legally cut that anymore. Any other type of Rosewood is NOT Brazilian but some other species of Rosewood which is not necessarily an "inferior" rosewood it is just not true "Brazillian" Rosewood but some other species that has been labled "Brazilliian" at some point in the process.

To me the Dalbergia Negra feels softer, sounds warmer, and mine definitely has a chocolaty smell to it. My daughter was here when I opened the case and she said "Daddy your bass smells like a candy bar". As you can see in the pics the color is a real rich Dark Chocolate color and is absolutely beautiful. I compared it to the Sadowsky I have and the Brazillian on the Sadowsky is much Redder than the Alleva. The Brazillian on my Nordy is browner than the Alleva. Both appear drier. The Sadowsky sounds nothing like the Alleva when you tap the wood (both have maple necks and Alder bodies so I don't think that is the difference). If I had to guess I would say that the "Brazilian" Rosewood on all 3 are different species of wood and thus 2 of them are not Dalbergia Negra but some other species of Rosewood. The bottom line is that the ONLY Brazilliian Rosewood is Dalbergia Negra.

Hope that helps!

Peace,

T

Hey Tom, That was a great post. Thanks! ...But, isn't the Braz that Carey Norstrand uses also Dalbergia Negra, but cut from the stump? Wouldn't it still technically be 'brazilian' i.e. Dalbergia Negra? Just cut from a different part of the tree?

That aside, I've always been told that Brazilian Rosewood offered more snap and clarity, yet you describe it as warmer. That is somewhat contrary to the conventional wisdom I've prescribed to. What can you tell me about the clarity, snap and sizzle of the highs?

I am about to pull the trigger on placing an order. (Largely in thanks to you as the final straw.) :D Basically, I think I want your exact AC LG4 in an LG5. Exactly. But I am choking on the cost of the Dalbergia Negra. (Which is what I believe would sound best?)

What wood is the Fingerboard on Paul Turners Oly White AC?

Gary
 
Hey Tom, That was a great post. Thanks! ...But, isn't the Braz that Carey Norstrand uses also Dalbergia Negra, but cut from the stump? Wouldn't it still technically be 'brazilian' i.e. Dalbergia Negra? Just cut from a different part of the tree?

That aside, I've always been told that Brazilian Rosewood offered more snap and clarity, yet you describe it as warmer. That is somewhat contrary to the conventional wisdom I've prescribed to. What can you tell me about the clarity, snap and sizzle of the highs?

I am about to pull the trigger on placing an order. (Largely in thanks to you as the final straw.) :D Basically, I think I want your exact AC LG4 in an LG5. Exactly. But I am choking on the cost of the Dalbergia Negra. (Which is what I believe would sound best?)

What wood is the Fingerboard on Paul Turners Oly White AC?

Gary

Gary,

I have never heard or read where Carey sources his wood but that was sort of the point of my post. If Carey or Roger or whoever is using Rosewood it does not necessarily mean that it is Dalbergia Negra (Which is the ONLY Species name for true Brazillian Rosewood). It may be labeled "Brazillian" Rosewood but it does not mean that it is. ONLY Dalbergia Negra IS Brazillian Rosewood. ANYTHING else is another species of Rosewood and to label it "Brazillian" Rosewood is not accurate. I am not saying that Sadowsky or Nordstrand is not Rosewood but I am saying that unless it is DALBERGIA NEGRA, it is NOT true BRAZILLIAN Rosewood. Keep in mind that when you are talking about stump wood you are not talking about the same thing that Jimmy is using. It may be that it is Dalbergia Negra Stump wood but that is still not what Jimmy is using. You would really have to see, feel , and hear it to appreciate the difference. Imagine if part of the tone of those old vintage Fenders is actually coming from the Board itself (as I believe is the case) you won't get the same thing from anything less. I guess for me my decision to pay the difference was based on the fact that it could really be the last 60's style jazz I would ever NEED to buy. I can't even describe how happy I am to own this bass and in hindsight I am absolutely convinced that the board is a big part of the equation for its tone and feel. I have no regret in spending the money and I am trying to convince myself that i don't need a P just like this.....

:cool:

EDIT - One thing I wanted to add was that I am playing my AC through an NV610 and NV215 so far using both a modded DB750 (Telefunken tubes) and my T-Funk TFB750 and the bass is very even, crystal clear, and sounds fabulous passive. I have tried the pre at extremes and it remains musical no matter how much you boost it. It can get very dubby sounding for Reggae or very burpy for solo stuff. Even with no tweeter in the 610, there is a depth and an airiness to the tone that just breathes as you play and yet there is a warmth there that just feels so good. The VTC adds just the right amount of treble cut IMO. I have not had the chance to record anything with it but I anticipate that it will sound incredible. It definitely has plenty of bite and sizzle to it even WITHOUT the preamp!! Mine shipped without a battery as mentioned and I got my first taste of it completely passive!! It tasted GREAT!! If you really like a vintage tone (I LOVE OLD FENDERS!!!) THIS is the bass. The bonus is I guarantee you will never find a vintage bass that has the attention to detail that the Alleva does. Although he may be young, Jimmy is definitely a master at what he is doing and I challenge anybody to make the trip to my house and check out my bass and dispute that!!

Peace,

T
 
Jimmy just updated his site... two of the 'fancy top' 5 string J's for sale right now. Those are not my thing, since part of the allure to me of the A-C's is the uber vintage sort of vibe. But, they look pretty sweet for those looking for a more fancy, AAA top look. Nice!
 
Hey Tom, That was a great post. Thanks! ...But, isn't the Braz that Carey Norstrand uses also Dalbergia Negra, but cut from the stump? Wouldn't it still technically be 'brazilian' i.e. Dalbergia Negra? Just cut from a different part of the tree?

That aside, I've always been told that Brazilian Rosewood offered more snap and clarity, yet you describe it as warmer. That is somewhat contrary to the conventional wisdom I've prescribed to. What can you tell me about the clarity, snap and sizzle of the highs?


IMO and IME here!

Recently A/Bing Mike's RW/Alder A-C with my ash/maple, there is a difference (mine.. snappier, a little more scoop, a little brighter, his... a little warmer, fatter fuller). However, they are more similar sounding than different, and there are a LOT of differences between those two basses:


- Weight... Mike's is a touch heavier
- Body... alder versus ash
- Pickup position... 60's vs. 70's
- Fretboard... Honduran RW versus Maple

So, the impact of the fretboard is there, but is probably pretty minor.

Now, when you get to different types of RW, we are really getting subtle. I do find that the Morado that is sometimes called 'Rosewood' seems to have a tone, response, feel, closer to maple.... it's very hard, shiny, non-porous, etc.

However, I would be VERY surprised if a high quality piece of Madagascar RW, Brazilian RW (stump cut or otherwise), Honduran RW, etc. would result in a significantly different tone. I've recently played basses with all three of these varieties, all with alder bodies, and the look and feel was quite similar... with the Madagascar variety being a little different due to the more red look versus the darker brown of the other varieties (both Kirk and I have the Madagascar boards on our NYC Sadowsky, and those boards are really red!).

If the 'concept' of the older cut Brazilian RW means something to you, I'm sure it's fantastic and worth every penny, from an 'interest and historical' perspective, and I'm sure it looks and sounds great also. However, if you are just looking for a nice looking RW board that helps the LG sound a little more fat and warm in concert with the pickup placement and alder body, then any 'true' RW should float your boat, and IMO you can really talk to Jimmy about color (more red versus darker brown, feel (more oily/soft versus smooth and hard) and look (more grained and open versus even and smooth).

I'm sure he has a killer piece for a very slight upcharge that will float your boat:bassist:
 
Here's a question:

Does anybody know why my bass keeps getting pushed back and everyone else is getting theirs delivered no problem.......? Spoke to Jimmy the other day and now he's talking early March......:confused::hmm:
 
Here's a question:

Does anybody know why my bass keeps getting pushed back and everyone else is getting theirs delivered no problem.......? Spoke to Jimmy the other day and now he's talking early March......:confused::hmm:

Because yours is getting a little more of the "secret dust" put in it.
 
I thought you guys said you didn't want pics. :smug:

I'll work on it. I don't get to spend enough time with her as it is. When I'm near her, I just want to hold her in my hands. I'll have to do a little photo shoot.

Nicky, dude, love ya, but that did sound a little, err, umm, weird:eyebrow:
 
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