Color or no color?

[Bassdirty]

Again, To Me, it dosen't matter. as long as I can get a good sound out of it.
Without runnin "maxxed EQ" just to get said good sound.
Now..opinions of what sounds good may vary.


Then again, the soundguy just gives you the DI anyway ,right?

 

[Arjank]

Then again, the soundguy just gives you the DI anyway ,right?

And thats the whole point, if you understand what I mean.

 

[allexcosta]

Then again, the soundguy just gives you the DI anyway ,right?

So, you don't care much about what you hear?

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Sea, I respect your point of view, but I really don't think there is a conspiracy by the manufacturers to cover up the fact that their cabs are not flat.

Agreed. OTOH more than a few manufacturers make frequency response and sensitivity claims that are questionable at best, and in some cases the stuff of absolute fantasy. The last thing those manufacturers would want is to see the general adoption of accurate SPL charts.

No I can't keep someone from dishonestly acquiring proprietary information, but that's still not the same as me giving it to them. And I think most people are inclined to be honest.

Most people are inclined to be honest, it's true. But the fact of the matter is that not revealing SPL charts and driver specs too for that matter is only keeping that information from those honest souls. Those who want to obtain that information for less than honorable purposes aren't deterred in the least from obtaining it.

 

[will33]

Something I've yet to understand is how these designers manipulate the distortion effect of speakers. Cone ridgidity, dustcap thickness and all that. How it's distortion sounds plays a part in it's tone too. I mean you could measure a berg or aggie or whatever, the go to a 3 or 4way "flat" system with a bunch if eq and mimic that response curve exactly and it still won't sound exactly the same at least up close. Most if that distortion goes away when you get about 30 ft. out but seeing most people are playing within 10ft. or less of their rig, that plays a part in the tone everybody's chasing.

 

[JimmyM]

Something I've yet to understand is how these designers manipulate the distortion effect of speakers. Cone ridgidity, dustcap thickness and all that. How it's distortion sounds plays a part in it's tone too. I mean you could measure a berg or aggie or whatever, the go to a 3 or 4way "flat" system with a bunch if eq and mimic that response curve exactly and it still won't sound exactly the same at least up close. Most if that distortion goes away when you get about 30 ft. out but seeing most people are playing within 10ft. or less of their rig, that plays a part in the tone everybody's chasing.

it does? well i guess i better add more then, eh?

 

[aborgman]

i agree with duke. there are cabs of both types that rock. the great thing about it is we can choose. we may get forced into picking favorites on talkbass, but in the real world we can use a colored cab one day and an uncolored cab the next day.

Maybe you can... my wallet is too light for that.

While I like a lot of highly colored cab - I can't afford a mess of cabs, and with a flat enough cab I can replicate to my satisfaction the sound of those cabs.

 

[Sundogue]

I made the point before, yet apparently nobody read it based on the comments that followed.

I get that most all of us love the way certain cabs sound regardless that they are colored a certain way. But again, too many are thinking that "flat" or "uncolored" cabs are tonally lifeless. All they are is a blank canvas waiting your input to color it the way you want. It isn't the cab's fault you either don't have the tools or the skill to color it to your liking.

Look, forget the term "flat" as being "flat (as in dull or lifeless) sounding", OK? All it means is that there simply are not extremes in the frequency range (either attenuated or accentuated). With a flat or uncolored cab, using an EQ one can attenuate or accentuate any of those frequencies found in "colored" cabs and make this so-called flat cab do the same thing.

But you can't take a colored cab and add or subtract as easily (if much at all) depending on how extreme the attenuation or accentuation is. It is what it is. The only problem with colored cabs is their limitation. If your tonal goals fall within that limitation, then it is isn't really limiting you anyway. That's why you dig it. Of course, those limitations are the cause of all the experimentation and cab swapping until you find a cab where those limitations work for you.

To top it all off, aside from tonal considerations, a lot of "colored" cabs have atrocious off axis response. Not because of them being colored...just a coincidence of the design. Just another consideration for me, although it obviously matters very little to others.

 

[rockstarbassist]

It should have it's own voice that adds to the sound. Otherwise what's the point? Just get some high-end powered monitors or an IEM setup if you just want to hear your "bass", but louder.

 

[tombowlus]

i agree with duke. there are cabs of both types that rock. the great thing about it is we can choose. we may get forced into picking favorites on talkbass, but in the real world we can use a colored cab one day and an uncolored cab the next day.

+1 Well said. But then again, I am easily convinced to jump on board any opinion that starts with "I agree with Duke."

In addition, your salient points are dead on: there are great options in both camps; we have the ability to choose what works best for us and/or makes us happy; and it's entirely possibly to like and use both types of cabs in the real world.

 

[aborgman]

No I can't keep someone from dishonestly acquiring proprietary information, but that's still not the same as me giving it to them.

It isn't dishonest, and it isn't (in the legal sense) proprietary - unless you're doing something massively radical. Prior art and common knowledge apply to what is "proprietary".

In the legal requirements defining proprietary:

"the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public"

 

[Bassdirty]

So, you don't care much about what you hear?

Well, I care what I hear.
The question was about caring of the cabinet coloring, not about caring what we hear. (At least I think it was, but the more replys I read,..I kinda wonder.)

Like I said in the part (That didn't get quoted)

If I can get the sound I like out of it, without extreme ends of the EQ spectrum, then a little coloring does not matter.


Heres an extremely exaggerated example:

Your tryin out the latest awesome cab, cuz your friends all got one.

You put your EQ close to the middle/or flat as you think it can be...
It sounds all whack...For whatever reason.
You mess with the knobs for a couple hours, and low and behold, you find your "Dream tone" coming out of it.

However, you notice that to achieve said tone, the Lows on the EQ are all the way down..cant go any lower.
The Mids are cranked all the way up, cant go any higher....same thing with the highs..cant budge that knob one red c hair more...but the tone is fantastic.

I would not buy that cab (to use with that head, but thats another question..I think.)

What if you needed a little more of something once you get out of guitar centers bass room and try it on a gig?...you dont have it.


Yes that is an extreme example..but the point is the same. I thought that part was clear in my post:

Again, To Me, it dosen't matter. as long as I can get a good sound out of it.
Without runnin "maxxed EQ" just to get said good sound.
Now..opinions of what sounds good may vary.


Then again, the soundguy just gives you the DI anyway ,right?

The DI thing was just a Joke [tough room], kinda referencing something I saw here a while ago.
(hence the fella hiding behind the wall)

 

[will33]

Distortion doesn't equal bad Jimmy as I'm sure you know.

May not sound like an OD pedal or a cranked tube but all the speakers have some degree of distortion that can be manipulated and that affects their "tone" in ways that are hard to tell from a graph.

 

[Sundogue]

Sea, I respect your point of view, but I really don't think there is a conspiracy by the manufacturers to cover up the fact that their cabs are not flat. Your'e statement is based on the assumption that manufacturers have any interest at all in creating a flat response cabinet. I doubt that is the goal of almost any manufacturer out there. Now, if there is a manufacturer out there claiming that their bass cabinets provide ruler flat response, with no coloration, then I would certainly expect that company to put their money where their mouth is and publish specs to prove their claim.

I don't think there is some kind of conspiracy either...not about cabs having flat response anyway. But you gotta admit, published specs wouldn't mesh very well with the hyperbole from their marketing departments would it?

They love to gloat about high wattage capability without acknowledging the displacement limitations. They love to show frequency response, but won't admit that most of the content below 100Hz is anemic at best. At worst, players attempting to coax low end out of those cabs may end up with blown speakers (due to displacement limitations plus their boastful wattage ratings leading unsuspecting users to think it's capable of something it's not).

But that's another thread topic and not really relevant to cabs being colored or not.

 

[Sundogue]

+1 Well said. But then again, I am easily convinced to jump on board any opinion that starts with "I agree with Duke."

In addition, your salient points are dead on: there are great options in both camps; we have the ability to choose what works best for us and/or makes us happy; and it's entirely possibly to like and use both types of cabs in the real world.

Given that I like a wide variety of tonal options, if I had all your cabs, I wouldn't need a flat or uncolored cab.

 

[ubercore]

Here's how I think of it. A speaker cabinet can do two things:

1. Make your bass loud
2. Make your bass sound awesome/different

... or some combination of the two. Some people -just- want 1, some want a combination, some want 2. It's a spectrum. At one end:

File:Mike-Gordon.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

at the other end:

Ampeg Heritage B-15 | Sweetwater.com

Pick where you want to be on that spectrum and don't worry about which one is right or wrong. For the record, I'm strongly in the #2 camp, but whatever floats your boat.

 

[tombowlus]

Given that I like a wide variety of tonal options, if I had all your cabs, I wouldn't need a flat or uncolored cab.

Well, looking at the cabs in my collection, I definitely view a good number of them as being "relatively neutral" sounding. Though yes, there are a lot coloration option in there, too.

 

[Passinwind]

When you buy or build a cab, do you look for a cab that's is as transparent as possible or one that adds a color that you like?

Neither one. I just look for one that responds well in the rooms I play in to me turning a few knobs, while only needing a few knobs, and not having to turn them all the way in all directions at once.

Edit: to clarify a bit, I prefer cabs that omit a little here or there, not ones that inherently add stuff that I just end up EQ'ing out. Duke's cab is a good example of this.

 

[DukeLeJeune]

It isn't dishonest, and it isn't (in the legal sense) proprietary - unless you're doing something massively radical. Prior art and common knowledge apply to what is "proprietary".

In the legal requirements defining proprietary:

"the information derives independent economic value, actual or potential, from not being generally known to, and not being readily ascertainable through proper means by, the public"

Thanks for the legal perspective. The scenario Bill described (buying a cab just to reverse-engineer it and then returning it to the store for a refund) certainly seemed dishonest and even illegal to me.

Now I'm even more inclined to hold my cards close, as evidently the law isn't on my side.

 

[billfitzmaurice]

Now I'm even more inclined to hold my cards close, as evidently the law isn't on my side.

It definitely is not, as even a very slight change in any product can circumvent patent protection, let alone IP protection. And since anyone can figure out what you've done in a matter of minutes there's really no point in trying to hide it. Even potting the active ingredient of the 'magic' Accu Switch in epoxy didn't render it safe from being outed as a fraud by a simple impedance sweep. The good news is that the major players don't copy avant-garde designs, as that would give credence to the notion that they've been peddling something inferior all along. If market forces eventually force them to adopt the better technology they tend to make it different enough from the prior art to be able to claim it as their own invention, even if only superficially so.