Indeed! My vote is that the Wizard of Oz give you a medal, for meritorious service to the land of TB.
Seriously, though: that's a very cool thing that you've done, and very helpful to your colleagues. Thanks for digging into the empirical question!
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Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables
- Thread starter bongomania
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Indeed! My vote is that the Wizard of Oz give you a medal, for meritorious service to the land of TB.
Seriously, though: that's a very cool thing that you've done, and very helpful to your colleagues. Thanks for digging into the empirical question!
there are enough extant guitar and bass magazines out there to hire out bongo's findings, which would help to offset the serious bucks he put down for science. (assuming that any of them would have the integrity to publish the facts. 
)
)
This was my experience: I was playing through my Epifani UL902c, into a Epifani UL 310 with my MTD 535. I was using a 20ft Monster Bass cable. As I was playing, everytime I played a low B on the B string it sounded as though I had a bad tube in the amp. Well my amp doesn't have tubes, so I said my bass must need a battery, so I changed the batteries, the noise remained. So I called Nick Epifani and he told me to bring the amp to him. I took the amp to NY to Nick, and he darn near took it apart trying to find where the noise was coming from, to no avail. He said, let's try a different cable. As soon as we tried it, the noise went away. So it was the cable. Months go by, and while practicing I used a Whirlwind, 20 ft. cable and the same noise I previously mentioned returned. Again, I changed cable, and the sound went away. I went back and used the Monster cable again, and both it and the Whirlwind made my amp sound like a bad tube. I then tried the experiment with my Skjold 5 string, and got the same results as my MTD. I then tried both basses using an Analysis Plus Bass Oval cable, not a sound. Since I am not a tech head, all I can tell you is that the other cables performed fine until I played a low B. It seemed as though the other cables could not handle the signal. I played scales on the E, A, D, and G strings, and everything sounded as clear as a bell. But when I played the low B, the signal sounded like high pitched thunder. Maybe because both of my basses produce a hot signal, heck I don't know. But I can tell you that all cable aren't the same. I did not notice a tonal difference while playing the 3 cables, but a huge performance difference. I wonder could the length of the cables made a difference. The Analysis Plus cable was 10 feet and the others were 20 ft. Uhmmm
There is no way for a passive cable, in good condition, to add noise OR cause problems with the "low B sounding like a bad tube". I'm sorry, and yes I know "you heard what you heard", but there is literally no way under the laws of physics that the cause and the effect you described are related.
The only thing that would change that is if both the Monster and the Whirlwind were damaged or faulty.
The only thing that would change that is if both the Monster and the Whirlwind were damaged or faulty.
My take is that there was possibly a bad connection at the output jack of the bass or the input of the amp, and the act of changing the cable reestablished the connection.
This was my exdperience: I was playing through my Epifani UL902c, into a Epifani UL 310 with my MTD 535. I was using a 20ft Monster Bass cable. As I was playing, everytime I played a low B on the B string it sounded as though I had a bad tube in the amp. Well my amp doesn't have tubes, so I said my bass must need a battery, so I changed the batteries, the noise remained. So I called Nick Epifani and he told me to bring the amp to him. I took the amp to NY to Nick, and he darn near took it apart trying to find where the noise was coming from, to no avail. He said, let's try a different cable. As soon as we tried it, the noise went away. So it was the cable. Months go by, and while practicing I used a Whirlwind, 20 ft. cable and the same noise I previously mentioned returned. Again, I changed cable, and the sound went away. I went back and used the Monster cable again, and both it and the Whirlwind made my amp sound like a bad tube. I then tried the experiment with my Skjold 5 string, and got the same results as my MTD. I then tried both basses using an Analysis Plus Bass Oval cable, not a sound. Since I am not a tech head, all I can tell you is that the other cables performed fine until I played a low B. It seemed as though the other cables could not handle the signal. I played scales on the E, A, D, and G strings, and everything sounded as clear as a bell. But when I played the low B, the signal sounded like high pitched thunder. Maybe because both of my basses produce a hot signal, heck I don't know. But I can tell you that all cable aren't the same. I did not notice a tonal difference while playing the 3 cables, but a huge performance difference. I wonder could the length of the cables made a difference. The Analysis Plus cable was 10 feet and the others were 20 ft. Uhmmm
Ever try cleaning the cable plugs and the input jack on your amp? I'm with Bongo on this.
Perhaps, but they have much better noise rejection than regular instrument coax due to the two-pair twisted configuration. In any event, I'll bet there is no discernable difference in sound between two 15-foot cables of both types.
Hey, I don't refute you guys, maybe there was another reason why I experienced those problems; and I will try your suggestions, because the cables are otherwise in like new condition. Thanks for your input.
In an unbalanced connection, the twisted pair doesn't buy you anything. Common mode noise rejection occurs in a balanced configuration where you have complementary signals on the two internal conductors.
Well... arguably (and I mean that in every sense of the word!) twisted pair buys you more than just common mode rejection (although yes, in order for it to offer common mode rejection it would require a balanced configuration). But even in an unbalanced configuration twisting conductors of opposite polarity can reduce the cable's inductance, which has a direct effect on signal rise time.
Whether the Hot & Ground of an unbalanced connection can truly be considered "opposite polarity" is just one of those "arguable" points...
scotch
It's not rocket science!
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Bongo can "test" and "measure" this stuff all he wants.
Last week, I replaced my usual cable with an Acme brand Piece of the One True Cross ultra-deluxe premium instrument interconnect. 2 things happened: While playing a cover of 'Satisfaction' in a bar with 25 people all yelling at the football game, I noticed a marked improvement of transients between 550hz and 552hz and I ran into a dozen drunk Amish girls on their Rumspringa.
I believe my anecdotal evidence more than trumps Mr. Bongo's findings.
Last week, I replaced my usual cable with an Acme brand Piece of the One True Cross ultra-deluxe premium instrument interconnect. 2 things happened: While playing a cover of 'Satisfaction' in a bar with 25 people all yelling at the football game, I noticed a marked improvement of transients between 550hz and 552hz and I ran into a dozen drunk Amish girls on their Rumspringa.
I believe my anecdotal evidence more than trumps Mr. Bongo's findings.
scotch
It's not rocket science!
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Yes inductance can be slightly reduced, but isn't capacitance going up proportionately? Not as much as a 70's curly-cord, of course, but were really getting down to minutia here. Plus likely "arguing" over levels imperceptible to the mortal ear.
Yes, it's my understanding that you rarely improve one without compromising the other. But for the sake of thoroughness, I felt compelled to mention another benefit to twisted pairs besides the more obvious CMR.
And your post about the Piece of the One True Cross cable made me blow coffee out of my nose!
Oh man! With guaranteed results like that, I'm going to give up measurement-testing anything ever again!
Passinwind
I know nothing.
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Oh man! With guaranteed results like that, I'm going to give up measurement-testing anything ever again!
You're doing it wrong Cyrus.
"Coming to Papa for the thong fitting you are..."
Just cause they sound the same doesn't mean there's no value in having a premium cable. Seeing somebody that's not recognized play an awesome bass line, vs seeing Paul McCartney play it excactly the same will have a very different impact, particularly on a female audience.
Maybe, if the audience is told that you're using $100 cables, they'd be able to participate in the psychoacoustics. Then it's money well spent!
Maybe, if the audience is told that you're using $100 cables, they'd be able to participate in the psychoacoustics. Then it's money well spent!
It is a relief to see this debate finally settled.
Now all the expensive cable companies will go out of business because noone is going to buy their cables nor their hype.
Now all the expensive cable companies will go out of business because noone is going to buy their cables nor their hype.
OK, but accepting that as a given (which I don't, really, but for the sake of argument...), how does that contribute to better noise rejection?
