Comparing the tone of three different "boutique" cables

[thepontif]

But if all the cables do the same thing, why do we care what that is?

The question that bongo has chosen to address is if different cables have different electrical characteristics that can be tied to their sounding different. It's relative; what a cable does in an absolute sense is a totally different question. It's not like a cable is optional. Yeah, I know, there's wireless, but that's a whole nother can o' worms.

You don't care. And I don't care. And many don't care. My point, once again, is to make clear to the consumer who might be looking for some empirical data on the behavior various boutique cables, that what they are seeing here is a comparison between various cables and not individual characterizations of individual cables.

 

[thepontif]

It's capacitating the signal.

Glad you mentioned that, because I was totally thinking that we were seeing a text-book example of turbo-encabulation of the signal

Or maybe inverse turbo-encabulation.

 

[ggunn]

You don't care. And I don't care. And many don't care. My point, once again, is to make clear to the consumer who might be looking for some empirical data on the behavior various boutique cables, that what they are seeing here is a comparison between various cables and not individual characterizations of individual cables.

I agree. What I was responding to was the implication (my inference) that bongo has been or should be looking for the absolute influence of the cable on the signal when all along it has been the relative effects of different cables that he has been testing for. He has been very clear (to me, anyway) about that in his statements of intent and the way he has presented his findings.

Absolute effects are very much harder to prove out than relative ones, and (as we agree), we don't care.

 

[bongomania]

Ggunn is right. I have not been trying to prove or indicate what cables qua cables do to a signal. Much as the "what's the flattest amp and cab" threads bear regular reminder that there's no such thing as an amp or cab with absolutely undistorted and perfectly flat response from input to output, we can all agree that cables as such must have some micro effect on the signal that crosses them.

As ggunn stated, my curiosity is in finding empirical evidence where it is feasible to find such that supports or challenges claims about different tone from one cable to the next.

I'm not denying that there may possibly be some tonal quality that will not be measured with the tests I have done or proposed to do; but if we can establish some groundwork understanding based on what can be tested empirically, then that will help narrow and focus the realistic discussion of such tonal qualities.

 

[thepontif]

Hook it up to a turbo-encabulator and see if it has any matadeer. That'll tell us something we want to know.

 

[bongomania]

I like jokes, but it sounds like you're trying to be snarky. Yes/no?

 

[thepontif]

Not snarky at all. Not even a little. Just wondering if anyone will ask what a matadeer is...

 

[bongomania]

Cool, just checking. You know, internet lack of facial and vocal cues.

Did you ever see the sketch-comedy gag where a woman calls out from the kitchen "What are you eating?" And her husband at the breakfast table looks at the box of cereal which says, in big bright letters, "Nut'N'B****!"

 

[thepontif]

LOL!!!!

 

[seanm]

Wow it took ages to read through all the pages that popped up when I wasn't looking.

Anyway, I might have missed something, but why not test coiled cables? I know a lot of people swear they destroy the tone. Do they? I've been using mine without noticing any harmful side effects to my sound but I've always just attributed that to my active bass and imperfect ears.

I don't believe coiled cables destroy tone. They have a terrible reputation for failing and for picking up 60Hz hum.

 

[A440Hz]

Umm, you also might want to check out the cables' updog component. And check the connectors for excess snew.

/s

 

[NateS]

and if their flux capacitors wear out, you'll have to order new ones. those booteek cables, they don't hold their flux that well.

 

[bongomania]

On a serious note, I did the cutoff-frequency calculation that thepontif suggested (fc = 1/(2*pi*RC)) and all the results are in the MHz range. For example, in the middle of the road we have the Lava Magma:
R = 0.4 (ohms), C = 6.26 E-10 (F)
1/(2*pi*0.4*6.26 E-10) = 710.2 MHz

So did I miss the boat somewhere, or is the cutoff freq a total non-issue in this application?

 

[NateS]

curious, is that to say, the highest frequency that the cables can handle? cause that's a lot higher than our hearing

 

[thepontif]

That's the frequency where the cable causes a 3dB drop in amplitude.

I think R needs to include the source impedance (I guess just resistance in this case), assuming a high impedance load. Even an active bass commonly has as much as 2k of output impedance to protect against short circuits damaging the preamp.

I'm not sure what the output impedance of a pasive pup is. DC resistance of a j bass pup is generally on the order of 10k, isn't it? At any rate, the F figure you're after would be much, much lower in the real world.

But, to satisfy my point from earlier, 0 impedance source and infinite impedance load does theoretically tell us what the Fc of the cable in isolation is.

 

[bongomania]

Ah OK, adding the resistive value of 10K to the calculation does get us into a more interesting KHz range. For example the Lava gets an fc of 25.4 KHz.

Given that there is now a plausible high-frequency rolloff point (-3 dB), can anyone guess which two cables have the lowest cutoff frequency? That's right, the two "bass" cables. Now, to be fair, the Monster is still right around 20 KHz (as high as most people can hear), and the Analysis Plus is around 16 KHz, which is still pretty high.

We've already demonstrated that a low z out and a high z in will essentially eliminate the effect of cable capacitance (for practical purposes), shown by the flat response to 20 KHz of even the Analysis Plus. So the next round of tests will be interesting.

 

[Hoover]

When ya gonna measure "articulation" ?
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And are all those fc measurements "out-of-octave" or "inter-octave" ?
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Sample:
"Building on MA-X Technology, which reveals the entire spectrum of out-of-octave harmonics, F.A.T. reveals all of the music that exists inter-octave. By selecting HD and engaging F.A.T., one hears lifelike transients and improved detail within the octaves of complex music."













[insert emoticon of exasperated engineer who can't believe the bullsh*t some manufacturers will claim]

 

[NateS]

which monster bass cable? is it the one with the supposed "capacitance" problems that cause "low end roll off"?


what? articulation is a measurable amount of the ability for a cable to STORE energy? wow....they need to quit.

 

[staindbass]

dont forget to listen to these cables as well as measure them just because one is flatter to 20 khz does not mean it sounds as transparent as another one that is -2 db @20 khz. i would go by my ear before i would go by measurements. just food for thought johnny a.

 

[ggunn]

dont forget to listen to these cables as well as measure them just because one is flatter to 20 khz does not mean it sounds as transparent as another one that is -2 db @20 khz. i would go by my ear before i would go by measurements. just food for thought johnny a.

The point (or one of them) is that you can't really trust your ears. If you expect to hear a difference, chances are that you will hear a difference irrespective of whether it's there or not.