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Cop Stop....Yet Again....
- Thread starter bryan gibson
- Start date
No problems with cops after gigs, but...
In the 70's I was coming home from a gig, 3 AM, and the driver in front of me was obviously wasted. I flashed my lights and he pulled over. I did too, told the guy he was too drunk to be on the road, and tossed his keys into the weeds by his car. I figured he would sober up by the time he found them. Today if I did that, I'd get shot! But those were more peaceful times...
In the 70's I was coming home from a gig, 3 AM, and the driver in front of me was obviously wasted. I flashed my lights and he pulled over. I did too, told the guy he was too drunk to be on the road, and tossed his keys into the weeds by his car. I figured he would sober up by the time he found them. Today if I did that, I'd get shot! But those were more peaceful times...
They call it "random stopping" here. Nothing random about it. Speak into the sniffer, carry on. At 1 beer a set it doesn't usually register.
jeffbrown said:
In the interest of correctness you noted a few pages back that the police need probable cause to pull you over. They don't. The need a reasonable suspicion that you have, are or will shortly be committing a crime. While having you pulled over if the uncover a crime- even one unrelated to what you were stopped for you can be arrested. See the Supreme Court decision in Terry v Ohio. Courts generally I've police very wide latitude with what's reasonable.
I used to get stopped regularly when I had long hair and drove a VW Camper Van.
One time we were living at 6am to play at Griffith Park (Los Angeles) day gig. About 6 cars showed up and they wanted to know what drugs we were dealing.
One asked to searched my car. Since I had never done any drugs and wasn't even carrying an aspirin, I said okay. He looked inside, rifled through the under dash tray for about 5 seconds and then walked away.
I'm sure the neighbors reported some long haired looking drug people to the local men in blue.
They had my passenger (sax player) about 20 feet away from me and were questioning him to check his story against mine.
Oh, well. All well that ends well, I guess.
One time we were living at 6am to play at Griffith Park (Los Angeles) day gig. About 6 cars showed up and they wanted to know what drugs we were dealing.
One asked to searched my car. Since I had never done any drugs and wasn't even carrying an aspirin, I said okay. He looked inside, rifled through the under dash tray for about 5 seconds and then walked away.
I'm sure the neighbors reported some long haired looking drug people to the local men in blue.
They had my passenger (sax player) about 20 feet away from me and were questioning him to check his story against mine.
Oh, well. All well that ends well, I guess.
Nope-30 miles away from the venue, different county, and a fairly busy highway. The only time I've ever been pulled over near the venue was the incident last month. Cops came to the venue for a noise complaint (we were loading out), and Deputy Dog was leaning on the hood of my truck while I loaded out. I made it a point to talk with them for several minutes before leaving, so they would know I hadn't been drinking that night. Same dude stopped me five minutes later, no ticket or warnings issued. I'm still trying to figure that one out.
Yeah been there done that it is all about being out there at 2am with the drunk people. Makes you an easy target I have been through two DUI check points in different towns on the way home on the same night. I do not drink so only problem is I get home a little later than I would have hoped. I have no problem with it because it takes the drunking people off the road which makes it safer for us people who just want to get home alive after rocking some place till the AM
My favorite post-gig pull over was in a less savory part of Detroit..
Him "Do you know why I'm stopping you tonight?"
Me "Because I'm not black?"
Him "Uh..yeah,actually..you lost?"
The officer was a BIG black dude,and seemed genuinely concerned. I explained the situation and joked about the "profiling". He said "I prefer the term "indexing" like at a library,and look around..somebody obviously left you in the wrong section!"
The next night,leaving the same venue,I had to walk about two blocks to get my truck. As I was walking on an overpass,I see three thugged-out black dudes walking my way from the other end. I was nervously contemplating jumping over the railing and hoping to tuck and roll. About 1/3 the way across,they noticed me and very much to my surprise,crossed to the other side and continued on,stealing nervous glances my way!
I got my truck and drove back to the bar to load up. As I pulled up in front of the place,the cop from the night before pulls up and parks behind me. We exchange hello's and I tell him what just happened. He laughed and told me that being a skinny white guy walking this this area at this time of night meant I was either crazy,on crack,or a cop and any way you cut it,they'd want nothing to do with me! He also said that being seen loading thousands in gear made me a great car-jack target for the next stop light..After the gear was loaded,he kindly followed me as far as the freeway insuring I got out of the hood with no issues.
Profiling happens all the time,we just don't see it when it has positive results..
Him "Do you know why I'm stopping you tonight?"
Me "Because I'm not black?"
Him "Uh..yeah,actually..you lost?"
The officer was a BIG black dude,and seemed genuinely concerned. I explained the situation and joked about the "profiling". He said "I prefer the term "indexing" like at a library,and look around..somebody obviously left you in the wrong section!"
The next night,leaving the same venue,I had to walk about two blocks to get my truck. As I was walking on an overpass,I see three thugged-out black dudes walking my way from the other end. I was nervously contemplating jumping over the railing and hoping to tuck and roll. About 1/3 the way across,they noticed me and very much to my surprise,crossed to the other side and continued on,stealing nervous glances my way!
I got my truck and drove back to the bar to load up. As I pulled up in front of the place,the cop from the night before pulls up and parks behind me. We exchange hello's and I tell him what just happened. He laughed and told me that being a skinny white guy walking this this area at this time of night meant I was either crazy,on crack,or a cop and any way you cut it,they'd want nothing to do with me! He also said that being seen loading thousands in gear made me a great car-jack target for the next stop light..After the gear was loaded,he kindly followed me as far as the freeway insuring I got out of the hood with no issues.
Profiling happens all the time,we just don't see it when it has positive results..
"He also said that being seen loading thousands in gear made me a great car-jack target for the next stop light". I am white, and I find this is a strange thing for the cop to say I think any race of people would be a target in that situation!
I have long hair down my back, bushy moustache and beard, ride a Harley, and have NEVER been pulled for the last twenty years. The last time was for going around 65 in a 60. I passed the trooper on a hill, so I went ahead and pulled over so he wouldn't have to catch up. He said he appreciated that, and so just gave me a warning. I didn't mean to be speeding.
It wasn't a strange or racial observation..It wouldn't have been my lack of pigment that made me a target,it would be the value of an entire band's worth of equipment pre-loaded in a brand new $40K truck in an area where you can buy a 4 bedroom house for less than $20K. And he's absolutely correct that I stood out like a sore thumb..I'm sure some of our Detroit brethren would agree that Cass Corridor at 3am is a great place to be from...far,far away from
Ok, lets talk about the real innocent here. According to the CDC, nearly 11,000 innocent men, women and children were killed by drunk drivers in 2009 in the USA. To put that into perspective, that is equal to one large U.S. commercial jetliner with over 200 passengers on board crashing every single week, week in and week out, and killing everyone onboard. I am a pilot and if the risk of getting onboard an aircraft was that high, I would not fly. If a cop pulls me over at 2:00 am to check me out I do not think of myself as being the victim. He is just playing to odds. He is trying to keep me and others from becoming a real victim and another drunk driving fatality statistic. In the end, it is all about saving innocent lives.
this post brings to mind a quote from Benjamin Franklin, originally published in the Poor Richard's Almanac
"Those who would trade essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety, and will soon lose both"
We get "profiled" on the way home from gigs all the time because half the band is black. How do I know it's "profiling"? Because the cop always sweats the black guys in the car, specifically the drummer, who is really big and wears a chain. My girl gets profiled all the time too just for being Mexican. I'm a clean-cut white guy and I only get trouble from cops when I'm leaving bars late at night. If you think profiling doesn't happen, I've got news for you...
If airplanes were falling out of the sky, I am sure the public we demand that the authorites do something about it. It is the same with drunk drivers. What about the civil liberty of the thousands of people killed each year? Being dead has nothing to do with "Temporary Safety." Death is kind of permanent.
Before I get going here: 20 years as military police in which I retired from Naval Station Great Lakes last year (I gigged mostly in Mchenry, and Lake County as well as the Kenosha area).
It's not just you. Interestingly enough though: no driver on the road has EVER been pulled over for a DUI. It's always a secondary finding after stopping a motorist for some other infraction. Probable cause can be established based ON the infraction; but not BECAUSE of the infraction. A driver is found DUI after being stopped for speeding, or crossing a solid center line, veering in lane, erradict operation, broken light...or any other possible reason that a cop can legally find to get you off the road safely. Once he/she comes up to the window; it's up to your actions, speaking ability, and (most importantly) your smell/stench to dictate what the officer does next. In some jurisdictions, an officer can actually get in hot water for performing a FST (Field Sobriety Test) on an individual who turns out to be perfectly sober. Different tell-tales will determine if the person is drunk or under the influence of perscription meds.
Thousands of people are innocently killed every year due to drunk drivers, and there are few things more tragic than that. However, it is all about money. Does the $10,000 DUI fine go to any awareness programs, intervention programs, or victims assistance? Hell no...it all gets subdivided between the local town, county, and state. Even if you are found to be 100% sober...you made a cop get out of his car in the middle of the night...yer gettin a ticket for something. Personally, I verify everything is working before going out to a gig (turn signals, headlights, license plate lights, brake lights) and it only takes an additional 60 seconds when I'm at my car loading up anyway.
A personal theory of mine (just a theory) is the deficit of state and local funding from DUI arrests. Illinois is not the only state who's officers are cracking down on DUIs and every other form of driving infraction. Since states have outlawed smoking in bars; there simply aren't that many people drinking where they can't smoke. Sure, the die hards still go outside in the freezing cold to smoke; but there number of young people coming of drinking age are simply not flocking to bars where they can't smoke. To counter this loss of revenue...anyone else notice the drastic increase in fines for non-DUI related infraction in their area? A broken tail light was a $50.00 fine...after outlawing smoking in bars it became a $150.00 fine.
Money is being lost and those of us who frequent bars for our music/business end up paying more of a price than the average weekend drinker or the middle aged alcoholic adolescent. Be safe out there.
It's not just you. Interestingly enough though: no driver on the road has EVER been pulled over for a DUI. It's always a secondary finding after stopping a motorist for some other infraction. Probable cause can be established based ON the infraction; but not BECAUSE of the infraction. A driver is found DUI after being stopped for speeding, or crossing a solid center line, veering in lane, erradict operation, broken light...or any other possible reason that a cop can legally find to get you off the road safely. Once he/she comes up to the window; it's up to your actions, speaking ability, and (most importantly) your smell/stench to dictate what the officer does next. In some jurisdictions, an officer can actually get in hot water for performing a FST (Field Sobriety Test) on an individual who turns out to be perfectly sober. Different tell-tales will determine if the person is drunk or under the influence of perscription meds.
Thousands of people are innocently killed every year due to drunk drivers, and there are few things more tragic than that. However, it is all about money. Does the $10,000 DUI fine go to any awareness programs, intervention programs, or victims assistance? Hell no...it all gets subdivided between the local town, county, and state. Even if you are found to be 100% sober...you made a cop get out of his car in the middle of the night...yer gettin a ticket for something. Personally, I verify everything is working before going out to a gig (turn signals, headlights, license plate lights, brake lights) and it only takes an additional 60 seconds when I'm at my car loading up anyway.
A personal theory of mine (just a theory) is the deficit of state and local funding from DUI arrests. Illinois is not the only state who's officers are cracking down on DUIs and every other form of driving infraction. Since states have outlawed smoking in bars; there simply aren't that many people drinking where they can't smoke. Sure, the die hards still go outside in the freezing cold to smoke; but there number of young people coming of drinking age are simply not flocking to bars where they can't smoke. To counter this loss of revenue...anyone else notice the drastic increase in fines for non-DUI related infraction in their area? A broken tail light was a $50.00 fine...after outlawing smoking in bars it became a $150.00 fine.
Money is being lost and those of us who frequent bars for our music/business end up paying more of a price than the average weekend drinker or the middle aged alcoholic adolescent. Be safe out there.
I agree but whatever is done must be Constitutional under the 4th amendment. That's not simply an inconvenient rule.
Though honestly the reasonable suspicion rule, at least the way it's interpreted by lots of courts waters down the 4th pretty significantly.
Same here. Got pulled over twice this year for equipment issues. In years past the stop would not have ended in a ticket but in a "Just get if fixed today" warning. Nope. $100 fines both times.
I made the same point in another thread recently. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks states and municipalities are trying to balance their books on the backs of motorists.
