CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

[DJ Bebop]

But what makes one performer better than another? If anything objective like ability to play fast was what mattered then the kids on youtube who can out shred 99% of all recorded popular music would be widely famous, but they aren't.
The problem is it is a subjective assessment regardless and independent of style of music, so why should any particular person get to decide good from bad.
The OP is clearly upset because the majority of the audiences in his local area see him as no better than the bands he calls hacks. Whether that is because he truly is no different, or because the audience doesn't care makes no difference, the audience simply doesn't see him as enough better to command the money he wants.

Subjective assessment?
Dude, maybe some in the audience don't care also but, I can tell if someone is playing out of tune, playing wrong chords, doesn't care about their appearance or performance. If that's something folks don't care about or see, so be it. But when you saturate a market with that, I don't know...

 

[DJ Bebop]

But what makes one performer better than another? If anything objective like ability to play fast was what mattered then the kids on youtube who can out shred 99% of all recorded popular music would be widely famous, but they aren't.
The problem is it is a subjective assessment regardless and independent of style of music, so why should any particular person get to decide good from bad.
The OP is clearly upset because the majority of the audiences in his local area see him as no better than the bands he calls hacks. Whether that is because he truly is no different, or because the audience doesn't care makes no difference, the audience simply doesn't see him as enough better to command the money he wants.

Plus me thinks this really has little or nothing to do with the audience and everything to do with the club owner/booker.

 

[crazyBassClown]

Plus me thinks this really has little or nothing to do with the audience and everything to do with the club owner.

Mcdonalds makes a fortune selling hamburger,
What makes a chord right or wrong?
And anyone who hasn't been autotuned to death, or is playing a keyboard is out of tune by some amount for every note they play. Whether that out of tune sounds good or not is again subjective.
Finally all club owner cares about is how many people turn up to club and how much they spend.

 

[Pbassmanca]

Literally just randomly came across this video of "John Pattitucci" destroying everything back in 1975, showing us all how meaningless our lifetime of chops and experience are......

P.S. That casual, yet extreme leg cross is both complimentary and legendary......

 

[geesharp]

Interesting thread. Okay.. after 27 pages...can someone tell me what hack band is? I got the idea what it is, but not sure if I'm right.

 

[Hambone70]

 

[DJ Bebop]

Mcdonalds makes a fortune selling hamburger,
What makes a chord right or wrong?
And anyone who hasn't been autotuned to death, or is playing a keyboard is out of tune by some amount for every note they play. Whether that out of tune sounds good or not is again subjective.
Finally all club owner cares about is how many people turn up to club and how much they spend.

And making a regular diet of said McDonald's can be damaging to your heath.

What make a chord right or wrong is depend on the desired effect. If I am playing my own art music or a rearrangement of a song, playing all minor chords on a tune that was major, I m cool wit DAT but if I am playing Free Bird and playing the wrong chords from the original because I don't know or care, not so cool wit DAT.

Autotune? Dude we are talkin' about bar bands playing in a bar.

I can forgive a keyboard being out of tune, for a song. Side point, the first time I saw Chick Corea and RTF, the first song they broke out on, his keyboard was out of tune. Boy he was mad. He fixed it right away. Didn't let it go, thinking it was subjective or that it may sound good, to some

I do agree, all club owners only care about butts in the seats buying beer, no matter how they got there...

 

[DJ Bebop]

Literally just randomly came across this video of "John Pattitucci" destroying everything back in 1975, showing us all how meaningless our lifetime of chops and experience are......

P.S. That casual, yet extreme leg cross is both complimentary and legendary......

"John Pattitucci" 1975

 

[RadioactiveGuy4]

Um...... I have not been angry once in this thread. I roll my eyes when I see/hear awful sounding and awful looking bands being paid to perform. But I don't get angry. I haven't been angry.

You won't let it go and I'm not even angry at you.

In fact, I established many posts ago that I am not trying to get famous. I am not trying to make a living playing music. I get paid what I am willing to play for currently. I am playing all I want.

It is about my music scene. It went from great to awful. And now one is more likely to catch a horrible band in a club around here than one is to catch a good band.


I don't understand why this is so hard to get your head around. It's SAD when your music scene is made up of mostly terrible bands that will play for peanuts. It's just sad to witness the downfall of a music scene that was once pretty good.

Sure, the club owners are just as much the blame for hiring them. Heck, even the friends of the horrible bands are to "blame". They go support the awful bands which sells beer.

I fully understand every single aspect of what is going on. Self indulgence of the bands. Friends supporting friends. Beer sales. Yada yada yada.

You need not explain one single aspect of it to me.

None of that changes the fact that many of the bands suck and they play for peanuts.

Are we on the same page yet? I mean, I'm trying here.

You think words like "awful" and "horrible" and "hack" are mean. I also get that. But I don't do participation trophies. You don't get to be called amazing just because you showed up. If you look like a bunch of carpenters on their lunch break on stage and play watered down versions of tired songs, your band sucks. End of story. Sure, you have the "right" to be there. Sure, you may sell some beer. Sure, the club may make a few bucks. Nothing changes about the band sucking.

And I personally think that drags the whole market with it. All of the people who are NOT friends of bands start to think they ALL suck. That's one more reason (on a long list of reasons) to stay home.

I am not going to change my mind about it. There's nothing to "win" here. If there's a contest, I'm not in it. If there's a debate, have it with yourself. I am simply stating how I feel about it. You don't have to agree.

Whew!!!! I'm tired. I hope this clears us up. I'm through with this for the night. Somebody ring the bell. I'm tapping out.

Somebody put the dead horse in the fridge and lock up. We'll go back to beating it in the morning.

I agree with some of the things that you have said in this thread but I think @Grahams Groove raises a good point. Are you doing anything locally to make your music scene better? Posting your feelings/opinions on talkbass is not going to fix it. You did say that you guys don't except gigs for under a certain dollar amount but that does not seem to fix the issue. If anything it leaves an opening for less professional/talented acts to perform. So what can you do at a local level that you are not doing already?

I'm genuinely interested in you answer and not looking to get you. A thriving music scene is a great thing to have and some of us seem to have one but for those that don't how can they make their scene better?

 

[DJ Bebop]

Interesting thread. Okay.. after 27 pages...can someone tell me what hack band is? I got the idea what it is, but not sure if I'm right.

Maybe these...

 

[Hambone70]

 

[DJ Bebop]

Sorry there's a cover tonight, $5

 

[DJ Bebop]

Yet, they were liked

 

[geesharp]

Maybe these...

Thanks...okay, that's worse than what I thought

 

[4001]

Interesting thread. Okay.. after 27 pages...can someone tell me what hack band is? I got the idea what it is, but not sure if I'm right.

Sub-par "musicians" that don't care if they ever get better on their chosen instrument because they have no real plans of being anything but a three chord, three minute song good times party band. To them, jazz and blues is "corny".

 

[MtManiac]

It isn’t just about the Woohoo Girls. These overplayed songs often are chosen simply for the band’s convenience, they are low hanging fruit.

My two favourite local cover bands played songs other cover bands didn’t touch and they didn’t have trouble attracting good crowds.

Yeah they’re not on our set list. But they’re somehow requested every single gig.

 

[brianrost]

Maybe someone with more of a head for economics than me can explain this, but the $100 per man price point has stayed remarkably stable against upward and downward wage pressures over the last 20 years.Thoughts?

In the bar scene the costs of running the business keep going up, up, up...rent, payroll, electricity, insurance, booze, etc. Now what costs can you control? What you pay the musicians. I really think it is that simple.

I know for a fact that after the real estate meltdown gigs being paid for by corprorate underwriters started going way down in pay...like 50%...because the venues could no longer get as much from underwriters whose largess depended on their profits.

The 21st century solution as I see it is the tip jar which is sort of the "roll your own cover charge". In those rooms, to me a good paying gigs is where the tips are more than the actual pay from the venue. The goal is getting $200 or more in the jar. Then we can get to $100 a man.

And the corollary, what’s the point in practicing if I’m either already as good as I’m gonna get or already great?

The best musicians in the world still practice...a lot. I just read an interview with Pat Metheny who talks about warming up for two hours before his concerts (which last about three hours). I do not practice nearly enough and I can tell...when I'm shedding a lot my playing on the gig is always better, even though what I practice may not be related at all to what I'm doing on the gig.

The way to make more money is simple: create demand by building an audience. Figuring out how to do that is the real problem. You might start by corraling your friends to come. It might be by getting more successful bands you're friends with to get you opening slots on their shows. Grab one set of ears at a time. When you start noticing people driving from out of state to catch every show you know you are starting to make inroads

The #1 thing that seems to always work is getting people coming to dance and "party with the band". I know a local bandleader who used to be a salesman, so he has the gift of gab and can sell his band to bars easily. He promotes incessantly on social media, calling out his fans by name (i.e. stuff like "Donna and Shirley are gonna come and the dancefloor will be smoking"). He also name checks the audience on the gig, invites folks up to "sing along", etc. His bands vary in personnel from night to night but he fills dancefloors, has solid rhythm sections and a rolodex full of exciting soloists who can play classic rock, funk, soul, blues and anything else that will get the women out on the floor. Guess what...he plays as much as he wants to, he once told me he was turning down offers from bars. I'll be honest, I almost never see his band (I'll stop by after my own gig when his runs later just to hang) but I really admire his work ethic. He draws, the bars love him, the musicians love that he pays decent money. Win-win.

I've played with hack bands (both when I was a hack myself and later doing subs). Most of them are social gatherings, not musical enterprises. Hack bands do not play as often as good bands and do not make as much money. Some last for years, others vaporize in months. They are much less of a "threat" to the livelihood of good bands than most people seem to think. Yes, they may get nights at the same bars that you do but no bar will keep hiring bands that don't fill the cash register. The hack players will not get chances to do higher paying gigs in high quality pickup bands doing one-offs at parties (private or public). The hack players will not get calls to do recording sessions at home studios by local solo acts working on a CD. The hack players will not get gig where they meet better players (including full-time pros) which will lead to more gigs in the future.

 

[Bass Viking]

Yeah they’re not on our set list. But they’re somehow requested every single gig.

I’ve always felt like a fool playing Brown Eyed Girl live when it comes to the “bass solo”. The band leader usually takes that opportunity to introduce the bassist, like I’m some kind of freakin’ virtuoso!

 

[TwentyHz]

... Do us all a favor and just jam in the garage... .

Sorry, nope.

Making and sharing music's kind of a social thing for some of us. This is the thing around which we socialize. As socializing, this activity is of high value to us, independent of cost recovery or profit margin, or how amazing we aren't. We really just want to hang out and shake our tail-feathers. We pride ourselves on keeping alive the idea that people can enjoy enjoy each others' creativity without buying it from each other.

I don't mean to be rude, but one might suggest that you do us a favor and quit trying to stomp all over our honest grassroots neighborly musical gatherings with your proprietary competitive sales channel rules and ROI.

It's music, my fellow TBers, eh?. Live Music. Y'know, MuuUUuuusiiIIiiic?: That stuff that sets the scene for us to love and think and feel and dance and forget and imagine and wanna do nekkid stuff with someone who's super-neato?

I'll help make that for free, thanks. In this age of digital content saturation, I WANT my local establishments to keep having live music instead of DJs with phones or TVs with football games. I WANT my local small festie organizers to break even. I'm rooting for them!

In fact, when some of us get paid, we share it with the bartender or the sound/lights person, or give it back to the fest, cuz' they're working. In my circles, we celebrate that the verb for making music is 'Play', not 'Work'.

 

[Bass Viking]

In fact, when some of us get paid, we share it with the bartender or the sound/lights person, or give it back to the fest, cuz' they're working. In my circles, we celebrate that the verb for making music is 'Play', not 'Work'.

Why are you sharing with the bartender, are they not being paid?