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CRAZY perspective I got from a long-time DJ last night

A friend of mine did just this, in New Haven CT. Years of endless work, and little to show for it, barely able to keep a head above water. He finally threw in the towel, sold out to a couple of local promoters who are finding out it isn't as profitable as they expected. The music business is no field of dreams.
There is a famous quote attributed to Hunter S. Thompson that goes something like this: "The music business is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where thieves and pimps run free, and good men die like dogs. There's also a negative side."
 
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If you are trying to make a living, support a family, pay bills, playing in a local scene. It will be tough to impossible.
If you are a weekend warrior, looking to play out and refreshing gear, this kind of money will do, IMHO.


Hopefully, this opinion is not disrespectful to anyone as I have apparently been judged disrespectful on TB I am almost afraid to say anything anymore :(
 
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A friend of mine did just this, in New Haven CT. Years of endless work, and little to show for it, barely able to keep a head above water. He finally threw in the towel, sold out to a couple of local promoters who are finding out it isn't as profitable as they expected. The music business is no field of dreams.
Sorry but this is how I imagine your voice.:D
 
I had a conversation Sunday with a guitar player friend of mine - we used to play together, but he's in the military, so between deployments and getting re-posted this coming summer, we had to put things on hiatus several months ago and were just catching up. I told him about my latest band's junior-high-level drama over the holidays and what we were currently doing about it, and that I concurred with his point, made to me more than a year ago, that the best mix is just a trio of bass, drums, and guitar, with one or two people singing.

He replied that in his further opinion, one person needs to be entirely in charge of song selection, the one singing them, and everyone else should be essentially a hired gun - you maybe get paid $25 for each rehearsal and $100 per gig, guaranteed, but you *have* to show up and you *have* to know your parts. No input on whether you want to do a song or a completely different song.

I was kind of taken aback, and didn't say much about it, but the more I thought about it later, the more I thought "that doesn't sound like a very fun situation to be in, I'd have to nope out of that." I have a job, I have responsibilities, I have people telling me what I have to do, and so much of my life as an adult male revolves around my performance, and measuring up. If a band situation is not fun, I'll put some effort into getting it where it needs to be, but if it looks irredeemable, then I am out of there. I'm a bass player with 37 years of experience across a variety of genres, and pretty much all of the time, I am the person in the room with the best knowledge of theory and time. I have choices available to me. If the musical chemistry isn't there, if the songs suck, if the BL is a dictator, if people can't have some fun, if there are no gigs in sight, if we aren't making any progress after three or four months, then things start becoming work. If after working all day, dealing daily with all the adult things like my son's first girlfriend or what my boss is gonna say when he finds out a project is going sideways, making supper for my kids, and driving 30 minutes to band practice - if after all that, I still face two to three hours of *work* with no reward in sight, plus a 30 minute drive home in the dark and the rain and the cold, then I just don't wanna do it. I'll take a break, learn some songs, find a different crew or re-build one out of some of the members of the previous crew.

So if and when I get a few gigs lined up, you'd better believe that I've earned my $100, as well as access to the bar. If someone were to show up - a "professional" - to tell me that I need to start asking for more dough so he can get paid more, or else I'd better GTFO, then although I'm a peace lovin' man, I'd have a hard time not swinging my bass into his crotch.
 
A trio of bass, drums, and guitar? How old-fashioned of him. I can think of at least a dozen projects I've worked on where that would not have been sufficient. I guess if he was playing really basic guitar rock, then yes.
But for the work I do, I work with at least a keyboard player and two vocalists. In fact, the guitar player is usually fairly secondary to the compositions.

Having the signer in charge would also severely limit what my band members could get away with musically. Most of the time, the instrumentalists are the ones pushing our singers to strive for newer, different material.

We also do all the charting, the pre-production, and decide on sounds. The singers rarely provide any of that kind of input, and when they do, they often can't elucidate with enough clarity to lead the band.

In almost every band I work with, the singers are never the band leaders. But that doesn't mean we're a bunch of children playing grade-school playground when we're preparing material.
 
I had a conversation Sunday with a guitar player friend of mine - we used to play together, but he's in the military, so between deployments and getting re-posted this coming summer, we had to put things on hiatus several months ago and were just catching up. I told him about my latest band's junior-high-level drama over the holidays and what we were currently doing about it, and that I concurred with his point, made to me more than a year ago, that the best mix is just a trio of bass, drums, and guitar, with one or two people singing.

He replied that in his further opinion, one person needs to be entirely in charge of song selection, the one singing them, and everyone else should be essentially a hired gun - you maybe get paid $25 for each rehearsal and $100 per gig, guaranteed, but you *have* to show up and you *have* to know your parts. No input on whether you want to do a song or a completely different song.

I was kind of taken aback, and didn't say much about it, but the more I thought about it later, the more I thought "that doesn't sound like a very fun situation to be in, I'd have to nope out of that." I have a job, I have responsibilities, I have people telling me what I have to do, and so much of my life as an adult male revolves around my performance, and measuring up. If a band situation is not fun, I'll put some effort into getting it where it needs to be, but if it looks irredeemable, then I am out of there. I'm a bass player with 37 years of experience across a variety of genres, and pretty much all of the time, I am the person in the room with the best knowledge of theory and time. I have choices available to me. If the musical chemistry isn't there, if the songs suck, if the BL is a dictator, if people can't have some fun, if there are no gigs in sight, if we aren't making any progress after three or four months, then things start becoming work. If after working all day, dealing daily with all the adult things like my son's first girlfriend or what my boss is gonna say when he finds out a project is going sideways, making supper for my kids, and driving 30 minutes to band practice - if after all that, I still face two to three hours of *work* with no reward in sight, plus a 30 minute drive home in the dark and the rain and the cold, then I just don't wanna do it. I'll take a break, learn some songs, find a different crew or re-build one out of some of the members of the previous crew.

So if and when I get a few gigs lined up, you'd better believe that I've earned my $100, as well as access to the bar. If someone were to show up - a "professional" - to tell me that I need to start asking for more dough so he can get paid more, or else I'd better GTFO, then although I'm a peace lovin' man, I'd have a hard time not swinging my bass into his crotch.
Yep.
To ME (no one else, just me), music is still an art form and needs to be fun. That doesn't mean I am not serious about it just, not about making it a burden. When it gets to the point where I dread going to a rehearsal or a gig like I did going to my straight job, I'm out.

IMHO, YMMV, Peace Love and Hair Grease!
 
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Yep.
To ME (no one else, just me), music is still an art form and needs to be fun. That doesn't mean I am not serious about it just, not about making it a burden. When it gets to the point where I dread going to a rehearsal or a gig like I did going to my straight job, I'm out.

IMHO, YMMV, Peace Love and Hair Grease!

Or as Elvis famously said about his movie career (anybody remember Elvis?) "When this ceases to be fun I'll cease to be doing it ". I have fun when a big dance party is taking place and I'm contributing to it!
 
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There's always gonna be some hack that will do it for less money .
I think some of the old boys should be mentioning the money has been doing nothing but going down from years ago .
But the price of everything else keeps going up .

Biggest problem I think is the paying public for the most part can't tell a good band from a bad band
or good sound from bad .
It's more how things look than how they sound and they think what they see in videos and TV is real .
NOT SAYING EVERYBODY
 
Hey some club owners (far too few) personally like live music. Most won’t do it at a loss (for too long), but they’ll do it sometimes if they break even. Owner of a club told me a few years ago about the blues band that I was playing in on a Friday night. “You guys sound great. I love it. But tomorrow night I ‘ve got a DJ and the place will be packed to the gills.”

The first band I was ever in was a Chicago Blues band when such things were very unpopular, especially in Hartford. The BL was on a crusade. The more obscure, the better. He was on a mission from God. Or maybe a mission from the psycho ward.

Anyway, this guy in a somewhat seedy section of Hartford opened a Blues Bar. The first time we played there ther were maybe a dozen people there. He said: “you guys are great. Soon I’ll have all the blues fans in Connecticut here!” I didn’t have the heart to tell him that all the Blues fans in Connecticut were already there.

The place burnt down a few months later..

Then John Bellushi single handedly made the Blues palatable to the masses.
 
Pendulums swing and history repeats.

Wives giving it up for free never put whores out of business. Your band playing for a $10 cover never cut into Nickelback or Cardi B's sales if they're in town the same night. Porsche doesn't worry about Ford, and you don't hang $5 posters from Wal-Mart on the walls of a mansion. The local high-school football team doesn't cost the SuperBowl any ad revenues, and McDonald's doesn't worry restaurants with 5-star Michelin ratings.

Do you hire the cheapest / amateur defense attorney, or why not just look up some legal stuff online and represent yourself? How will we feed all the starving lawyers?!?

Let people charge what they want, as they will.

Offer a better product at a higher price, or stay home. With the debt implosion that's begun, what bar gigs pay will be the least of amateur musicians' worries.
Well said, Thank you!
 
It's the age-old problem: "I DESERVE to be paid [X dollars]!" But when management hires cheaper labor (or sends the jobs somewhere else), then what? Do people need to pay a hundred thousand for a car because some guys in Detroit want top dollar? Competition is what drives prices and wages in the long run.

How do you define, in terms of annual income, "want top dollar"?
 
I'm not sure appealing on this message board for all bands to refuse to play for small paychecks is really going to have an impact....reality? Lots of bands will play for less. or nothing. just to play. And there are more of them than ever chasing fewer and fewer live venues. Its the nature of the market. I don't see anything slowing this trend down. if you are in music to make a great living and retire on it, it's a fantasy that only a few realize.

Bands will never form a union. You cannot suspend the laws of supply and demand. If you could, you'd drive bars out of the live music business anyway. So it is what it is. Keep it as a passion. If you're betting your future on it, you're very foolish. Even signed bands don't make squat these days. For a variety of reasons.

but yes, if you're in it for the money, you are probably going to be very disappointed.
 
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You probably should try to keep your two cents to yourself. Where does ANYONE come off telling anyone else what, where, and for what money they can play? Put a hundred in my hand for an easy three hour gig in the corner bar/cafe/restaurant, I'm fine. I'm not playing corporate jobs and weddings for that money, but what if I did? As Ella and Taj say, "ain't nobody's business but my own".

So, what are we to discuss on talkbass, if we need to keep our "two cents" to ourselves? And for that matter... why is it okay for you to disregard your own advice?