Crossdressing and bandmates.

[Robroy]

We get it, you have a firm idea of the way men and women should act and dress, and aren't comfortable with those who think differently. You seem to be crying out for an argument here.

Actually, I have a firm idea of what is masculine and feminine. Funny thing, too, the more men and women embrace their sexuality, the more "sexy" they are to the opposite sex.

Times change, people don't.

Oh, and I looked up metrosexual. Many of the details actually describe me. Heck, I was in a fabric store looking for some stuff to fix up the stage of a venue my band was playing regularly and I was getting so inspired regarding what I could do with my bass gear, my car, my "man cave" etc. that I looked at the sales girl and said, "Dang, this makes me feel really uncomfortable. I feel like I'm getting in touch with my inner f**. She was so startled that she just gave me a blank stare for a second and then busted a gut.

But it always works better when men are men and women are women. If I want to get in touch with my feminine side, I reach for my wife.

 

[monkeyfinger]

I see a lot of comments about "cross-dressing as a stage gimmick or act" and doing it to "fly your freak flag". But I don't think that is what the OP was talking about. For most transgenders, this is not something they just do to be different, drawer attention to themselves, or be glamorous. They do this because it is truly how they see themselves and need to express themselves. Just because I wear a dress for a day does not make me a transgender because I still identify as a male heterosexual.

 

[slobake]

We get it, you have a firm idea of the way men and women should act and dress, and aren't comfortable with those who think differently. You seem to be crying out for an argument here.

I have been holding back because I don't want to start something that would get the thread locked. Sometimes it is better if I keep myself in check.
You can also take the Columbo approach. Let people talk and incriminate themselves, no need to comment on it or point it out. Others can see what is happening.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Actually, I have a firm idea of what is masculine and feminine. Funny thing, too, the more men and women embrace their sexuality, the more "sexy" they are to the opposite sex.

Times change, people don't.

Oh, and I looked up metrosexual. Many of the details actually describe me. Heck, I was in a fabric store looking for some stuff to fix up the stage of a venue my band was playing regularly and I was getting so inspired regarding what I could do with my bass gear, my car, my "man cave" etc. that I looked at the sales girl and said, "Dang, this makes me feel really uncomfortable. I feel like I'm getting in touch with my inner f**. She was so startled that she just gave me a blank stare for a second and then busted a gut.

But it always works better when men are men and women are women. If I want to get in touch with my feminine side, I reach for my wife.

If buying fabric is living on the edge, I'm really sorry for you.

 

[Robroy]

I saw be true to yourself. The rest doesn't matter. Tell them and if they aren't cool with it, that's their problem.

True, but to them it is not necessarily a "problem"...well, unless the guy stays in the band.

 

[Robroy]

I see a lot of comments about "cross-dressing as a stage gimmick or act" and doing it to "fly your freak flag". But I don't think that is what the OP was talking about. For most transgenders, this is not something they just do to be different, drawer attention to themselves, or be glamorous. They do this because it is truly how they see themselves and need to express themselves. Just because I wear a dress for a day does not make me a transgender because I still identify as a male heterosexual.

Sadly, I can't properly respond to that without the risk of being banned. There are some opinions that are not really tolerated here.

Tolerance is not necessarily a two way street these days.

 

[Robroy]

If buying fabric is living on the edge, I'm really sorry for you.

It's not. Nor did I say it was.
For me, living on the "edge" is moving across country to start a new life just because it's time for a change. Or drifting in my FR-S on the way to work. Or riding technical trails on my mountain bike. Or getting between an asian gang and the kid they are trying to beat to death. Or holding a woman who is hanging from the passenger door of her SUV that she just rolled three times right in front of me, while we wait for the ambulance and police. Or throwing buckets of water on a building fire I came upon on my way home from work, while I wait for the fire department.

That's how I live on the edge. And, for what it's worth. Living on the edge can be exhausting.

 

[One Drop]

Actually, I have a firm idea of what is masculine and feminine. Funny thing, too, the more men and women embrace their sexuality, the more "sexy" they are to the opposite sex.

Times change, people don't.

Oh, and I looked up metrosexual. Many of the details actually describe me. Heck, I was in a fabric store looking for some stuff to fix up the stage of a venue my band was playing regularly and I was getting so inspired regarding what I could do with my bass gear, my car, my "man cave" etc. that I looked at the sales girl and said, "Dang, this makes me feel really uncomfortable. I feel like I'm getting in touch with my inner f**. She was so startled that she just gave me a blank stare for a second and then busted a gut.

But it always works better when men are men and women are women. If I want to get in touch with my feminine side, I reach for my wife.

Even within the very unfixed range biological differences, there is a world of very different ways masculinity and femininity, and many other degrees of sexuality, are expressed in various cultures and times in this planet.

Your very fixed and simplistic binary description of men and women is s relatively new one and is unsupported biologically, as well as having little reference or value for many other cultures and historical periods.

BTW that saleswoman probably thought you were nuts for believing that only women care about fabrics or decorating.

 

[One Drop]

Sadly, I can't properly respond to that without the risk of being banned. There are some opinions that are not really tolerated here.

Tolerance is not necessarily a two way street these days.

I can tolerate people just fine. If they continue to push their opinions I don't agree with I might decide to argue.

It's only the anti PC brigade that continually uses this argument. Not tolerating intolerance can be pointed out as being a problem, but it is only a semantic one.

Everyone tolerated your repeated attempts to troll this thread until you finally got the argument you desired, so you can trot out your favorite theme about PC and whatnot.

I've seen you in other threads crowing about how you play other posters like cheap dolls without them knowing, or some such other nonsense, so please don't pretend this is not what you're trying to do now.

 

[Robroy]

Even within the very unfixed range biological differences, there is a world of very different ways masculinity and femininity, and many other degrees of sexuality, are expressed in various cultures and times in this planet.

Your very fixed and simplistic binary description of men and women is s relatively new one and is unsupported biologically, as well as having little reference or value for many other cultures and historical periods.

BTW that saleswoman probably thought you were nuts for believing that only women care about fabrics or decorating.

She got my joke. You didn't.

Regarding masculinity and femininity: They are hard wired. This may help:

 

[jwr]

True, but to them it is not necessarily a "problem"...well, unless the guy stays in the band.

I disagree. It's a problem of acceptance of one's choice to do what they feel appropriate or right. What I mean is, they may have an issue with the OP doing what he wants to, which is not his problem, it's their problem. It's not up to him to change their mind. It's up to them to have acceptance of others and if not, well then that's sad.

 

[the yeti]

Just wanted to add that my objection earlier was based on the context of the band that I'm in currently. In that band it really wouldn't work. But i guess that as long as you're not wearing shorts, you're probably okay.

daisy dukes and heels are probably fine.

 

[JimmyM]

Doesn't that sound like the same arguments that led to red-lining? (The practice of denying housing to people of color.)

Not at all. Every job has certain requirements, and many have dress codes. That is not red lining.

Musicians who cross dress are in REALLY GOOD COMPANY... And have been for a long time. David Bowie, and countless others. A few people have said something to the effect of 'if my band mate is cross dressing that puts my income at risk'. Think about David Bowie's (RIP) paycheck, then get back to us on this issue!

You ain't David Bowie and neither is the OP.

 

[monkeyfinger]

"Redlining" was a label given a reasonable business practice. Banks are risking money when they loan it. Some neighborhoods were simply too risky. It wasn't about race though there may have been an outlier or two). It was about ability to repay the loan.

But it got politicized, and here we are.

An acquaintance owned a chain of "discount" grocery stores. He had to close one in a bad neighborhood because the shrinkage was horrendous. He was not accused of redlining because, well, he wasn't a bank.

And that is exactly why we have laws preventing this. You see this 'legitimate business practice' was preventing a very large group of people from accessing housing in better areas with better schools. Poor neighborhoods and poor schools means poor paying jobs. So you can see why this was an issue. The landlord would say I have nothing against Black people, but if I rent to this Black family, other people, (meaning White people), won't want to rent from me and I will loose revenue. So what you call a reasonable business practice was racism pure and simple. If you think racism is only about the KKK or Neo-Natzi party spouting junk about White supremacy, you are sorely mistaken. Racist, and anti-queer, attitudes are often couched in reasonable practices that are not driven by overt hostility. So in the case of red-lining, the government had to step in to say that no bank can make these claims and all banks will share the hardship equally. That leveled the playing field.

 

[Robroy]

I disagree. It's a problem of acceptance of one's choice to do what they feel appropriate or right. What I mean is, they may have an issue with the OP doing what he wants to, which is not his problem, it's their problem. It's not up to him to change their mind. It's up to them to have acceptance of others and if not, well then that's sad.

I'll apply a business world example: Sometimes an employee can do the work, but he's a terrible fit for the team culture. When that happens, the employee is terminated. He is terminated because it eliminates the problem.

Now, we can discuss "fixing" the situation, but I've worked at 18 companies and seen a lot of problem employees and situations, some of which were fixed and some of which were simply "fixed through termination".

My point is that once the member is gone, the problem is fixed. Whether or not their refusal to accept him is moral or not is something one needs to take up with their particular deity. But trust me, to them, the problem went away when the person did.

This is how the real world works.

 

[Robroy]

daisy dukes and heels are probably fine.

For some venues, probably true.

 

[Robroy]

And that is exactly why we have laws preventing this. You see this 'legitimate business practice' was preventing a very large group of people from accessing housing in better areas with better schools. Poor neighborhoods and poor schools means poor paying jobs. So you can see why this was an issue. The landlord would say I have nothing against Black people, but if I rent to this Black family, other people, (meaning White people), won't want to rent from me and I will loose revenue. So what you call a reasonable business practice was racism pure and simple. If you think racism is only about the KKK or Neo-Natzi party spouting junk about White supremacy, you are sorely mistaken. Racist, and anti-queer, attitudes are often couched in reasonable practices that are not driven by overt hostility. So in the case of red-lining, the government had to step in to say that no bank can make these claims and all banks will share the hardship equally. That leveled the playing field.

It's not the bank's responsibility nor the responsibility of business owners. This is why, if you are from a blighted neighborhood, your top priority in life should be to GET OUT OF IT. Success begins with that first step.

Blighted neighborhoods are one of the few things I DO think it is the responsibility of government to fix. And not by destroying a free market by forcing businesses to do things (fascism). They fix it by making the area an area governed by laws. And if you break those laws, you suffer consequences. It actually causes fewer people to break the laws, and those that WANT to live in a civilized society can be free to build and improve without fear of the lower element destroying the fruits of their labor.

Forcing banks to give loans to bad risk borrowers and not enforcing the law regarding how those loans are created and managed is what led to the housing crisis of 2007-2008.

Red lining is simply a practice of determining where it is not profitable to do business. It can be done by Wal-Mart because they don't draw lines. They simply choose not to buy and build. And you can't FORCE a company to buy and build. But for banks it is a bit trickier, though it should not be.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

I'll apply a business world example: Sometimes an employee can do the work, but he's a terrible fit for the team culture. When that happens, the employee is terminated. He is terminated because it eliminates the problem.

Now, we can discuss "fixing" the situation, but I've worked at 18 companies and seen a lot of problem employees and situations, some of which were fixed and some of which were simply "fixed through termination".

My point is that once the member is gone, the problem is fixed. Whether or not their refusal to accept him is moral or not is something one needs to take up with their particular deity. But trust me, to them, the problem went away when the person did.

This is how the real world works.

18? Hmmm....

 

[monkeyfinger]

Not at all. Every job has certain requirements, and many have dress codes. That is not red lining.


You ain't David Bowie and neither is the OP.

So, if your "dress-code" says that the person cannot dress according to the gender with which they identify, you are alright with that? We are not talking about wearing combat boots and ripped jeans in a show requiring formal wear. I would expect a transgender person to pick an outfit that goes with the look of the band and the goals of the venue. I would expect that of all band members. I just wouldn't expect that outfit to match with the birth-gender of the person.

 

[Funk³]

Sadly, I can't properly respond to that without the risk of being banned. There are some opinions that are not really tolerated here.

Tolerance is not necessarily a two way street these days.

Tolerance for the first instance of intolerance is rare because it's not a logical thought process.