Chef
In Memoriam
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Detuned Cabinets?
- Thread starter JehuJava
- Start date
The sound waves sum on your eardrums. They sum at one point. Same for an audience member. This is frequency response on your eardrums. Take the frequency measurements at different points on different axises. If it's a combination of the room + cabinet - this comes out too.
I get a little tired of the constant "measurements mean nothing" being pushed here. If something sounds good to somebody they should measure it. There is nothing wrong with careful observation and using electronic tools to observe the results. These tools have "Never" disagreed with actually hearing. Never.
Other boards are strong on useful measurements, and some "proof". It doesn't hurt anything if the cabs do what the maker says.
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Pushing it can't be measured by science is getting old.
Detuned cab's are in the common vernacular and have been around for years in guitar cabs--usually running a 4x12...with only 2 12's. Makes it sound like an open back cab...works for a guitar amp.
What works for a guitar very often won't translate well at the frequencies a bass uses.
Chef
In Memoriam
Tired?
Then take a nap.
Your point of view is no more valid than any one else's.
"If it sounds good, it is good" is a perfectly valid viewpoint, and no one need bow down to your personal need to quantify things in numbers.
Which is also an equally valid view, and one others may well tire of.
Mutual tolerance would go a long way towards making things civil for everyone.
Then take a nap.
Your point of view is no more valid than any one else's.
"If it sounds good, it is good" is a perfectly valid viewpoint, and no one need bow down to your personal need to quantify things in numbers.
Which is also an equally valid view, and one others may well tire of.
Mutual tolerance would go a long way towards making things civil for everyone.
OK --trying to take the high road here but Monsieur Monkey has been going on different threads saying bad things about the Big E's. On another thread he went as far as posting a picture from the website with a DIY design that wasn't at all what the speakers are. He complains about lack of measurements. I brought up a post where I included a graph of the Big E frequency response compared to a Thunderchild 15 .(with Duke's permission.) Duke even commented on how he was confident of the graph's accuracy as it pretty much nailed the TC. As Duke had stated, the MAS 85 graph was likely a bit better. I have not mentioned a word of the Big E stuff in any thread except for a Big E thread. But I feel that I have the right to defend myself against someone with an obvious agenda that doesn't have the courage to express his opinions in a Big E thread. He just goes on other threads and gets digs in and posts erroneous information about these speakers.
I'm a nice guy. Contact me in a PM and I'll be happy to give my phone # ---I love to talk about this stuff---even with people that disagree with my opinion. If you're in the Chicago area--I'll buy the beer. If you want to try a cab---cool---I'll work with you.
I don't agree with some of the rhetoric used by other involved people. I think that going on Soundforums was not an inspired idea.
I've been working very hard to respect the CUP rules here on TB. But if I'm expected to be professional and respectful is it too much to ask the same of others?
I'm a nice guy. Contact me in a PM and I'll be happy to give my phone # ---I love to talk about this stuff---even with people that disagree with my opinion. If you're in the Chicago area--I'll buy the beer. If you want to try a cab---cool---I'll work with you.
I don't agree with some of the rhetoric used by other involved people. I think that going on Soundforums was not an inspired idea.
I've been working very hard to respect the CUP rules here on TB. But if I'm expected to be professional and respectful is it too much to ask the same of others?
I'm okay with the whole "mutual tolerance" thing as long as everyone on Talkbass agrees that *MY* opinion of everything is the only one that is correct.
As you can imagine, I am VERY popular at parties!
I'm no cab design expert. I have designed and built a pair of sub cabs using TS parameters and software for cab size, port length and diameter, but that doesn't make me an expert. But it seems to me that if someone takes a speaker out of a multi-speaker cab, then the remaining speakers might sound good at low volume, but would be prone to damage if given more power.
SirMjac28
Patiently Waiting For The Next British Invasion
one more thing--I'm kindof with Bearded here. He wasn't trying to get big endorsements for some new technology. He was just sharing on trying something unusual that got him closer to the sound he wants.
I made comments---it breaks some common sense rules in cab design but who cares? If it brings you closer to the sound that makes you happy---mission accomplished!!!
I made comments---it breaks some common sense rules in cab design but who cares? If it brings you closer to the sound that makes you happy---mission accomplished!!!
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
Your analysis is incorrect as it applies to the ear/brain system.
The ear/brain system can tell the difference between a first-arrival sound and a reflection, and it processes them very differently. The ear/brain system interprets reflections according to arrival time, intensity, spectral content, and arrival direction.
May I suggest "Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudstpeakers and Rooms", by Floyd Toole; "Audio Transducers" by Earl Geddes; and "Spatial Hearing" by Jens Blauert.
That's a pretty strong statement, and I disagree.
Even if you have a COMPLETE set of ALL relevant measurements, and a CORRECT interpretation of them (and your model of sound waves summing at the eardrum falls far short in both areas), that STILL may not correlate precisely with actual hearing. That statement may appall you, but there is something that's being left out.
Just for the record, I do believe absolutely in gathering as much good data as possible and interpreting it correctly, but I wouldn't make the leap you have here and say that it will never disagree with actual hearing.
So does pushing if I don't understand it, it can't be true.
You can Measure the cabinets outside. Right?
AES has papers on how to do these kinds of measurements.
You build cabinets you can't listen to your cabinets in every room? There has to be a common place to start.
Great books. Good studies in science. Sound reproduction, Hearing, and Spacial hearing measured and studied. Experiments devised. And results published.
I've got no issue with the science here.
The books have science on this. When the delay is close (within a few MS), we don't know which arrives first. Our brains just put it together. Depends on how loud it is, etc. A lot already in the book. This could be a big topic here.
I just want to see it explained to anyone. Don't assume I wouldn't understand how it works if it was actually published. If I was too dumb, then maybe a scientist could simplify it for me.
Bass Gear Magazine does a good job measuring and publishing the measurements. It seems matters to some others too, like BGM readers, I guess. The measurements BGM publishes always seem to agree with their listening tests. There must be some truth in measurements.
BGM pop out the drivers and take an inside shot. Look under the hood.
Looks like I'll have to wait for BGM to measure and pop one open.
Of these, Untuned cabinets that is.
Sure
"If it sounds good, it is good"
But below isn't true for everyone
"If it doesn't sound good, then it isn't good"
BassmanPaul didn't like the sound. It's not someone is right and the other wrong.
Bearded Wizard is right, what he has sounds good to him. I'd like to see Bearded Wizards measurements so I can duplicate what it sounds like. Shouldn't just be one or two of these in the world.
I'll drop out of this thread.
I see Bearded Wizard's point.
From the sounds of it bigE doesn't yet have a new measuring protocol that can account for perception of their wundercabs.
- Nov 24, 2008
- 4,343
- 7,163
- Disclosures
- Owner & designer, AudioKinesis; Auth. mfg, Big E (Home Audio only)
I have no idea what your point is.
Seems to me you've demonstrated a partial (i.e. incomplete) knowledge of the science in these books, which has led you to incorrect conclusions.
Wrong, our brains do not just "put it together" if the delay is within a few milliseconds. We may not be consciously aware of which arrives first, but our ear/brain system certainly is. From the standpoint of localization, fusion stops at about .85 milliseconds, but even within that early interval we're hearing arrival time differences and phase differences and computing the location of the sound source. Do you know what that .85 millisecond interval corresponds to? You would if you'd actually read those books. After .85 milliseconds fusion continues in the perceived loudness domain, but the arrival angle of the reflected energy plays a significant role in perceived coloration and spaciousness. If the reflection arrives from one direction it's heard as coloration, but if it arrives from another it's heard as spaciousness. Please tell us how your "sound waves sum at the eardrum" model remotely begins to predict any of this.
I just want to see it explained to anyone. Don't assume I wouldn't understand how it works if it was actually published. If I was too dumb, then maybe a scientist could simplify it for me.
Are you talking about the "detuned" cabinets here, or are you taking a pot shot at Mike Arnopol and his Big E speakers? Either way, I don't think your interest in an explanation is sincere, so I'm not going to take the time. And fully explaining the Big E technology is both beyond my knowledge and above my pay grade.
Bass Gear Magazine does a good job measuring and publishing the measurements. It seems matters to some others too, like BGM readers, I guess. The measurements BGM publishes always seem to agree with their listening tests. There must be some truth in measurements.
BGM pop out the drivers and take an inside shot. Look under the hood.
Looks like I'll have to wait for BGM to measure and pop one open.
Of these, Untuned cabinets that is.
Are you trying to convince me that measurements are useful? I'm an award-winning speaker designer. I already know that, and use a far more comprehensive suite of measurements than you'll ever see in any review. But yes, definite kudos to Bass Gear magazine for their well thought-out measurements.
I think it is unreasonable of you to expect Bearded Wizard to supply measurements. If your actual background in acoustics and psychoacoustics was as strong as your public advocacy of "science", you'd be able to look at the design of detuned cabs as described in this thread, look at the subjective comments of those who have heard one, and come pretty close to figuring out what's going on.
Don't leave on my account.
Actually we're learning bit by bit. It's funny that Here Monkey keeps saying that we refuse to measure. We're measuring all the time. If he cared to look he'd see a frequency graph of the 85 and the Thunderchild.
Duke is the best at measuring (he has the best software) but the rest of us are using the same mics and measurement techniques so we're comparing apples to apples.
\
Again (pardon my redundancy) the reason I did a comparison with the TC was just to give a reference point. Because of the contribution of the sound coming out of the vortex/waveguide we have to give some distance. One meter doesn't do it.
We will be getting professional measurements done---it is quite expensive and we want to have our ducks in a row as far as what we're trying to achieve.
I feel confident enough of my measuring to analyse problems and anomalies--crossovers, etc. but I don't feel that they're good enough to publish. But all of our design is based on an equal balance of measuring and listening. One thing I want to get is the impulse measuring. It's very interesting---really shows what is going on.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
The bit where he posted a recording what sounds good to him is probably pretty informative.
Well, I don't know if I should resurrect this old thread since it seemed to just be argumentative, but it is about what I am interested in. I don't know if London Power was given a fair shake since in the context of power scaling and used in combination with it the detuned cabs for guitar it has been reported to deliver a heavy overdriven sound at bedroom volume levels. So my question is, has anybody tried this for bass? Specifically a cabinet built using the recipe of leaving 1 driver cutout wide open in a 2 driver box and only playing at low practice volumes where overexcursion isn't an issue.
Mr. Foxen
Commercial User
Lots of people use open backed practice cabs, it works the same if you put the back close to a wall, it hasn't got much to contribute.
Chef
In Memoriam
with some many great, affordable cabs on the market, I don't know why you'd bother.
especially if you're only concerned with "bedroom volume levels."
especially if you're only concerned with "bedroom volume levels."
Please understand that Kevin has many ideas and has written a few books. Remember the old adage: Don't believe everything you read in a book!!!!
That said Ringo DID say that it must be true 'cos he read it in a book!
