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Do graphite rods make a difference?

#21
Do graphite rods make a difference? I would have said that they make a difference for the better...until I spoke at length with a bass builder who is highly respected around this forum. He shocked me by saying that he no longer uses graphite reinforcing rods. He feels that they are unnecessary for most necks. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of his instruments with or without graphite rods, but it still took me aback. Don't ask me who it was. I don't share private conversations by name. Just thought I'd share my shock and surprise. :eek::) Now that I think of it, my budget MTD Kingston 5 has no graphite rods. It has a very stable, even-sounding neck. Go figure. :eyebrow::)

M. M.
 
#22
blowinblue said:
Do graphite rods make a difference? I would have said that they make a difference for the better...until I spoke at length with a bass builder who is highly respected around this forum. He shocked me by saying that he no longer uses graphite reinforcing rods. He feels that they are unnecessary for most necks. I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of his instruments with or without graphite rods, but it still took me aback. Don't ask me who it was. I don't share private conversations by name. Just thought I'd share my shock and surprise. :eek::) Now that I think of it, my budget MTD Kingston 5 has no graphite rods. It has a very stable, even-sounding neck. Go figure. :eyebrow::)

M. M.
Click to expand...

As to how long the 'fight' will take, who knows? It may not happen on your bass - it may already be happening and you haven't noticed it yet. I do know on two basses I owned the truss rods did absolutely nothing but torment me, and once the necks went out, they stayed out.

Just my experience. And after talking to Michael Tobias about it, I wouldn't bother with them, you're just asking for trouble. The necks I like best are the ones that are easiest to adjust, like the 1 piece MTD necks, without even quarter sawn wood, and the neck on my Taylor ABG1, which is very flexible but so easy to adjust, it's wonderful.

Cheers,
Cameron
 
#23
The thing is Cameron (and as I mentioned, I talked with Mike about this before as well), there are other great builders who don't agree with Mike's position. And there are a lot of great instruments out there with graphite support that have never had any issues at all. I think it comes down to design, and if you use the graphite, knowing how to put it all together. From what your implying, any instrument with such support rods is destined for failure, and that just isn't the case.

As far as failure rate, I can pretty much guarantee that there are just as many wood-only necks out there that have suffered from warps and twists as there are supported necks that have had issues. Many of those wooden necks were crafted with great care and precision, yet they still had issues down the road. If graphite supported necks where really such a problem, we'd hear a lot more about failures than we do. Mike's choice not to use them is great, and I believe he knows what he's doing when he builds basses without them. I just also tend to believe that other builders know how to use them correctly and are aware of the pitfalls that can appear if corners are cut.
 
#24
A neck is not only the sum of the ingredients, but the sum of the quality of the ingredients as well as the intelligence of the design and the efficiency of the application. Properly chosen and seasoned woods, as well as proper steps of neck construction are necessary for a great stable neck (graphite reinforced or not). IME as a customer, I have found that graphite reinforced necks require the least of attention and set up, whereas most non-graphite reinforced necks require more attention and season change set ups
 
#26
Bassflute said:
The necks I like best are the ones that are easiest to adjust, like the 1 piece MTD necks, without even quarter sawn wood, and the neck on my Taylor ABG1, which is very flexible but so easy to adjust, it's wonderful.
Click to expand...

Just so you know, your Taylor ABG does indeed have Graphite Reinforcement. I own a Taylor AB-2, and can vouch for this personally. I highly doubt Robert Taylor and Steve Klein would have used such a "floppy" wood as mahogany for a thin, Jazz-width neck without some type of reinforcement.

All of my "Main Players" have Graphite Reinforcement within the necks (Mike Lulls and Spectors) and after 4 years of Lake-Effect Winter weather in Northern Ohio with only the most minor of tweaks to keep them perfectly stable, if there is "intangible" lost because of it (and having played all-wood necks for the first 15 of my 20 years, I haven't noticed anything of the sort) I'll certainly give that up for the increase in stability, tuning, and general stiffness. The only bass I've owned that's come close is my Ibanez SR-1206 six-string with it's 5-*wide*-pieces of Wenge and Maple that its neck-through consisted of... and even that needed a few more tweaks than my current basses. I'm not a Graphite Composite neck fan, so I see this as the best compromise between wood and artificial materials (actually, I don't even see it as that, as I said I haven't noticed an difference in the reinforced necks compared to the wooden necks tonally).
 
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#27
I have one of the very first Taylor AB1's, and the neck adjusts SO easily I assumed it had no reinforcement. How is this possible then with graphite rods in the neck? Perhaps they added it to later instruments? I phoned
Taylor to check but they're closed for the long weekend - I'll check into that next week - you've got me curious now.

But I stand by the fact that I have owned two basses whose necks were so stiffened by multiple graphite rods that adjustments were impossible - the necks did not move in any direction, not even a little bit. One of them was a wide spaced 6 string that had 2 truss rods, and 3 strips, and the two truss rods absolutely CRANKED would not budge the fingerboard one micron. My luthier at the time said in order to get less relief, he was going to have to remove the frets, plane the fingerboard, and then refret it at a cost of about $600.00. And after all that you STILL wouldn't be able to adjust it; for that he'd have had to take the fingerboard off completely, redo the inner neck parts, then put a new fingerboard on it and do a complete refinish - cost: $1,500.00 - $2,000.00.

Hence my adverse reaction to graphite rods.

:rollno:

Cheers,
Cameron

Ian Perge said:
Just so you know, your Taylor ABG does indeed have Graphite Reinforcement. I own a Taylor AB-2, and can vouch for this personally. I highly doubt Robert Taylor and Steve Klein would have used such a "floppy" wood as mahogany for a thin, Jazz-width neck without some type of reinforcement.

All of my "Main Players" have Graphite Reinforcement within the necks (Mike Lulls and Spectors) and after 4 years of Lake-Effect Winter weather in Northern Ohio with only the most minor of tweaks to keep them perfectly stable, if there is "intangible" lost because of it (and having played all-wood necks for the first 15 of my 20 years, I haven't noticed anything of the sort) I'll certainly give that up for the increase in stability, tuning, and general stiffness. The only bass I've owned that's come close is my Ibanez SR-1206 six-string with it's 5-*wide*-pieces of Wenge and Maple that its neck-through consisted of... and even that needed a few more tweaks than my current basses. I'm not a Graphite Composite neck fan, so I see this as the best compromise between wood and artificial materials (actually, I don't even see it as that, as I said I haven't noticed an difference in the reinforced necks compared to the wooden necks tonally).
Click to expand...
 
#28
So, two necks (by un-named builders) is enough data to assert that graphite bars in any neck WILL cause problems?

I don't mean to offend, but that seems to be quite a leap. Considering Lakland's been selling basses with graphite support since at least 1994, and Fender started putting the bars in around 1997 or so, I think your conclusion is a bit over-stated. Especially since one post says "... necks were so stiffened by multiple graphite rods that adjustments were impossible...". That sounds more like a bad design than an inherent problem with graphite supports.

John
 
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#29
There is not ONE Roscoe bass without graphite reinforcement, anywhere, ever. They have had it since the very first bass ever built here in this shop.

I think that the reputation for stability and tone speak for themselves. They are also quite adjustable.

There is a bit more to it than JUST the graphite rod/s, correct orientation of wood grains, selection of stock that is straight and true, choice of woods that are inherently stable and strong. But all things equal, YES the correct application of graphite rods will make a neck more stable, and will not cause any negative effect, either structurally or tonally.

I will always have necks with graphite reinforcement. :)

Oh, and KJung, the Lakland Skyline basses DO have graphite reinforcement, unless they have discontinued that in the last few years.
 
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#30
All US Laklands, and the Skyline five-string have graphite support. The four-string Skylines do NOT have graphite.

From Laklands website... "Necks on both 4 and 5-string US basses are reinforced with a strip of graphite on either side of the truss rod, which provides a stabilizing effect. The 5-string Skyline necks also have graphite reinforcement but the 4-strings do not."

Invalid Link Removed

John
 
#31
JTE said:
All US Laklands, and the Skyline five-string have graphite support. The four-string Skylines do NOT have graphite.

From Laklands website... "Necks on both 4 and 5-string US basses are reinforced with a strip of graphite on either side of the truss rod, which provides a stabilizing effect. The 5-string Skyline necks also have graphite reinforcement but the 4-strings do not."

Invalid Link Removed

John
Click to expand...

John, thanks for clearing that up! :)
 
#34
Gard said:
There is not ONE Roscoe bass without graphite reinforcement, anywhere, ever. They have had it since the very first bass ever built here in this shop.

I think that the reputation for stability and tone speak for themselves. They are also quite adjustable.

There is a bit more to it than JUST the graphite rod/s, correct orientation of wood grains, selection of stock that is straight and true, choice of woods that are inherently stable and strong. But all things equal, YES the correct application of graphite rods will make a neck more stable, and will not cause any negative effect, either structurally or tonally.

I will always have necks with graphite reinforcement. :)

Oh, and KJung, the Lakland Skyline basses DO have graphite reinforcement, unless they have discontinued that in the last few years.
Click to expand...
+1 All the way around. ( Dangit! I just agreed with an LSU fan! :D ) Too many respected builders out there using it for it to be a blanket-stated bad idea. I think ultra shifty all-wood necks are probably MUCH more common than graphite problems such as Cameron is describing. But I'm just guessing based on what I've experienced and what seems to be the more common issue here at TB.
 
#35
CapnSev said:
+1

I can tell a difference in resonance between a traditional neck, and a graphite-reinforced one for sure. For me it's a trade off between tone and stability.
Click to expand...
How so? I can't say I've noticed any such occurance. The Lakland JO's, Glaub's and Dunn's sound pretty darn authentic to me. Heck, there's as much tonal variation within Fender Jazz basses as there are in the clones.
 
#37
Gard said:
There is not ONE Roscoe bass without graphite reinforcement, anywhere, ever. They have had it since the very first bass ever built here in this shop.

I think that the reputation for stability and tone speak for themselves. They are also quite adjustable.
Click to expand...

I think Roscoe is a good candidate that simply wouldn't require reinforcement due to the choice in lumbers and construction. Hard to imagine a nice 3 pc with purple heart down the center of the neck and a Dymondwood FB requiring extra stability.

Still, hard to make assessments and predictions that can apply across the board. My basses with ebony FBs graphite or not tend to freak out the most.
 
#38
As a luthier who has pretty much always used graphite and owned several with and without. I would not want to build a bass without it. I have My rods custom made and the rigidity is less than some you can buy. The reason I use it and the reason it makes a difference is this:

You are removing a small amout of unstable material ( wood is by nature reactive and therefore unstable ) and adding stable material. This acts a a suggestion to the wood to stay in one place. The graphite I use is not so stiff as to fight the trus rod, so that is a non issue. But it is glued in with a special process and at the end of the day does impact the tone ( I feel for the better ) and the stability. Of couse I am only talking about MY basses and building experience.

Funny, Mike ( Tobias ) is experimenting with titanium rods, and those do make a difference. I wish I didn't feel that Graphite was benificial, it would be a lot faster and cheaper for me to make a neck without graphite.
 
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#39
Bassflute said:
I have one of the very first Taylor AB1's, and the neck adjusts SO easily I assumed it had no reinforcement. How is this possible then with graphite rods in the neck? Perhaps they added it to later instruments? I phoned
Taylor to check but they're closed for the long weekend - I'll check into that next week - you've got me curious now.

But I stand by the fact that I have owned two basses whose necks were so stiffened by multiple graphite rods that adjustments were impossible - the necks did not move in any direction, not even a little bit. One of them was a wide spaced 6 string that had 2 truss rods, and 3 strips, and the two truss rods absolutely CRANKED would not budge the fingerboard one micron. My luthier at the time said in order to get less relief, he was going to have to remove the frets, plane the fingerboard, and then refret it at a cost of about $600.00. And after all that you STILL wouldn't be able to adjust it; for that he'd have had to take the fingerboard off completely, redo the inner neck parts, then put a new fingerboard on it and do a complete refinish - cost: $1,500.00 - $2,000.00.

Hence my adverse reaction to graphite rods.

:rollno:

Cheers,
Cameron
Click to expand...

I had to comment on this as what you are saying is not a graphite problem ( albiet it didn't help matters) but a truss rod problem. If you were trying to get LESS relief, then the graphite wasn't as stiff as you are saying because the neck would have NEEDED relief if it were too stiff. It sounds like the neck was probably made of multilaminated woods and the truss rod was insificiant in strength to move the neck. I use a dual action truss rod and have no problem putting forward bow or backbow into my necks as soon as I adjust them.

My experience outside of my basses which convinced me that reinforcement was a good idea were the two basses I owned (that were very stable the whole time I used them). A Roscoe and a Warmoth neck. Both had reinforcement and I opted for the graphite for weight reasons. I am now looking into titanium for certian applications.

Oh, and if a luthier makes you a neck that is not adjustable, he owes you a new neck ( or bass if it is neck through) at no charge. This is a warranty issue too. I am very sorry you had a bad experience with two custom instruments. I hope you don't have those issues in the future and if not choosing graphite for your bass eases your mind then that is what you should do. If a customer came to me and said I love the bass but I don't want graphite, I would be fine with that as long as he understood why I put it there in the beginning.
 
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#40
Pete skjold said:
I had to comment on this as what you are saying is not a graphite problem ( albiet it didn't help matters) but a truss rod problem. If you were trying to get LESS relief, then the graphite wasn't as stiff as you are saying because the neck would have NEEDED relief if it were too stiff. It sounds like the neck was probably made of multilaminated woods and the truss rod was insificiant in strength to move the neck. I use a dual action truss rod and have no problem putting forward bow or backbow into my necks as soon as I adjust them.

My experience outside of my basses which convinced me that reinforcement was a good idea were the two basses I owned (that were very stable the whole time I used them). A Roscoe and a Warmoth neck. Both had reinforcement and I opted for the graphite for weight reasons. I am now looking into titanium for certian applications.

Oh, and if a luthier makes you a neck that is not adjustable, he owes you a new neck ( or bass if it is neck through) at no charge. This is a warranty issue too. I am very sorry you had a bad experience with two custom instruments. I hope you don't have those issues in the future and if not choosing graphite for your bass eases your mind then that is what you should do. If a customer came to me and said I love the bass but I don't want graphite, I would be fine with that as long as he understood why I put it there in the beginning.
Click to expand...

and after buying 3 basses from the guy, and having several students buy from him as well, and hooking him up with Bass Northwest to sell his stuff there, and introducing a guitarist to him who bought about 5 guitars from him, and his students, etc., etc., he STILL wouldn't even admit there was a problem. The 6 string in question was a 9 ply neck-through, and a very expensive one at that. You could NOT change the relief in any direction, period. It was permanenly stuck with too much relief.

One of my other students had an absolute nightmare getting warranty work out of him when he bought a piezo & magnetic pickup fretless in which he had not installed a buffer circuit - the thing would absolutely peak even line level inputs, just fry them....and there was absolutely no way to balance it with the magnetic PU. Sounded HORRIBLE...my student finally had to get a buffer installed in the preamp by Mike Lull in Seattle and threaten to sue the guy. Mike Lull also got Bartolini involved, and it was a total mess. He WOULD NOT admit that a piezo bridge pickup needed a buffer preamp circuit, even after Bill Bartolini himself tore a strip off him. Really, really awful treatment for a customer who had just given you $3,000.00 for a bass. And on top of all that he was rude, insulting, lied, and was surprizingly ignorant about bass building and especially electronics. He's a furniture builder. Nice piece of woodwork - electronics, fretwork/network is frequently a nightmare on his stuff.

Needless to say, the builder in question doesn't get any work from me anymore. I won't mention him by name, but he lives in Vancouver, BC, and is generally well-respected around here, which is a shame, because he is a total jerk and a fraud.

I've known him for over 25 years. We are not friends anymore.

:scowl:

Cheers,
Cameron
 
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