I have the GK MB Fusion 800. I should have gotten the 500.....I can't turn this thing up to "2" without being too loud....and I play in a Megadeth tribute with two electric guitars and "real" drums.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Does anybody really need more than 500 watts?
- Thread starter Joe Nerve
- Start date
Distortion in an all-tube amp can sound good "when I want it" to and certainly at much higher percentages of distortion that I could ever get to sound good in solid state. But I don't "want" distorted sound. I want clear, warm and articulate sound.
I personally like the overdriven sound far more than the "dirty" distortion you get from most pedals. But to say "500+ watt of solid state power just turns into mush" is more than a little bit naive, condescending, and just not true. All of that depends on the design of the amp AND the cabs you play it through. Yeah, it can be mush, or it can sound sparkling clear, articulate, and warm like my Eden amps through my DNA cabs. There is absolutely nothing "mush" about that sound at all.
I understand and appreciate your "old school" stance about tube amps though. My first amp was a 1966 Fender Bassman amp that I bought new in 1966. It served me well up until 1971. I liked the sound of it right until I turned the volume above #7 on the dial and the speakers farted out. It was a 50-watt amp with 12" Jensen speakers. Also didn't enjoy it much when I had a couple of tubes go microphonic on me when I first started touring in 1971. That was the last all-tube amp I owned. I actually saw an SVT 810 in 1971 and lusted after that amp right up until I bought my Standel amp, which blew it away (200-watt solid state with amp with two of "the right" 15" speakers). So really depends upon the design and the speakers that are matched to it. All-tube design is definitely one way to get loud with great sound, but it's not the only way.
And of course with an all-tube 200 to 300-watt amp plus cab, you better have either a strong back or roadies.
Wow, even I think that’s over the top complicated
Fabulously creative however
I don't think it is, really. The most complex part is accounting for solid state wattage i.e. the PA without giving you a number that requires you to bring your own PA to compete. I admit that could be made simpler without shortchanging the resulting number; we can assume 10dB headroom in the PA and just divide those wattages by 10.
You want complex, we could get into actual Fletcher-Munson curve numbers, efficiencies of your amp speakers vs everything else in the system, etc. The above is an "add it up in your head" model that gives you a number to look for when picking an amp.
Wow!
Most pro GK users find them very powerful and versatile. Sad that you had such a negative experience that you'll never try one again. I respectfully disagree with you on the functionality of the combo. It looks near perfect to me. To each their own...
I honestly had a similar experience with GK; the Backlines and the 700RB just didn't have the same oomph as other rigs, even with lower rated wattage. I remember GK having a thing about pushing woofer cones into distortion without clipping the tweeter and that being a desirable sound; that's one reason their 700 and 1001 RB combos were biamped. So, it may just be that they were pumping that power into deliberately under-spec'ed speakers to allow that to happen. Whatever it was, it didn't work for me.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,008
- 5
- 220,832
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Or you can simply pick a volume that you wish to play at and choose an amp/speaker combination that supports that SPL (ie. sensitivity in dB/1W/1M times power at any distance you choose).
Nowhere have you accounted for speaker sensitivity in your deluxe modeling, since commonly available speakers can vary by as much as 10dB in sensitivity, you are leaving out a huge factor (as much as 10X power) that probably dominates just about everything else. Detailed doesn't necessarily mean accurate, just a thought.
I'm aware of this. I've also found remarkably few amp manufacturers willing to post sensitivity info about the stock speakers loaded into their products, to say nothing of making it part of their model numbers. 5000W looks more impressive on the spec sheet than 110dB/W/m (and I'm aware this would be a very impressive sensitivity number), even though you're absolutely right in that 5000W through 100dB/W/m is just as loud as 500W through 110dB/W/m.
As for working backward from the desired volume, that requires you to know where to start, which means you need to know approximately how loud everything else on stage will be. To know that, you have to know what everyone else is playing through. Do your guitarists know their amp wattage? I've known very few who don't. Do they know their speaker sensitivity? I've known very few who did.
It's a guess. It happens to be a guess that's held up well after 15 years of using it. And it's a guess that in many cases can be compiled from the model numbers of the amps in use.
Last edited:
500W -> 800W isn't that much of a difference. It's more of an outcome based on which ICE module was selected (or other manufacturer).
I don’t need more than 500w for my current projects. I can imagine needing higher wattage with different bands though.
I think the rule is that you need 10 X the power to double the volume. 500 = twice the 50. 5,000 = twice the 500.
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,008
- 5
- 220,832
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
I’m going to disagree here. If the goal is using a 500 watt amp at 4 ohms, there are plenty of viable speaker choices to maximize volume and low end that do not require a 2.67 ohm load.
For example, a 4 ohm 410, 215, 212, 810, a pair of 8 ohm 210’s, 115’s, 112’s, 212, etc.
Of course, this assumes reasonable speaker designs and not models that came to be as the result of stuffing a random speaker in a box.
OK, I always thought it was the capacitors deteriorating. So, for what seems to be more background noise or hiss, is it:
1) some other component showing its age;
2) background noise that was always there, just more noticeable now in a digital age than it may have been before;
3) or some other cause?
Agreed. I can get pretty damn loud with my 4ohm Eden 212 cab with my Markbass LMIII on top. A 500w amp offers plenty of headroom unless your band is pretty doggone loud. I get it that a lot of y'all play in really loud rock/metal bands because it is what it is. But when does the need for more power end?!?! Seems some of y'all would be chomping at the bit for a 3000w amp. Headroom be damned! That's just insane and not needed.
I want a 1,000 watt all tube SVT. That way, I could blow the speakers of multiple cabinets at the same time!
- Feb 12, 2006
- 61,008
- 5
- 220,832
- Disclosures
- Development Engineer-Mesa Boogie, Development Engineer-Genzler (pedals), Product Support-Genz Benz
Likely always there, but a proper qualified tech would make noise measurements to identify something that is not right.
I keep a benchmark unit of everything I design so that any questionable performance symptoms can be directly compared with a known good unit. Otherwise, it’s easy to go down the rabbit hole of trying to repair something that isn’t there.
your noise experience is not uncommon with the low noise floor that the digital environment can provide. (Many of) Today’s amps have improved noise floors that parallel improvements in both the pro audio and recording fields.
You just made me want a 2x12 for my LMIII. Just can't justify the purchase with zero gigs.
