Does anybody really need more than 500 watts?

[agedhorse]

But in that case couldn't you just run a line out to a power amp with more speaker cabinets? You only need one pre-amp correct? A Master/Slave setup? Isn't that how they did it in the old days?

You could, but it’s simpler with a single amp and whatever cabinets you need.

 

[Bigbri]

Not sayin ya don't, but wondering.

I currently have a 700 watt Carvin that I love, but no longer trust. I'm considering replacing it with one of these 500 watters...

View attachment 4032359

...but wondering if I'll ever need more wattage.

In my experience all that's ever necessary in any band/gig situation is enough volume to get a comfortable mix on stage. Anything louder than that is going through the house anyhow.

SO... does anyone here feel they really need more than 500 watts, and if so, please convince me. I am open to dropping $150 more for the higher watt version. I just think right now its might very well just be a waste.

I would recommend the Mesa WD-800. Nice tube preamp tone and high pass filter. 800 is enough but it's not tube watts.

 

[HolmeBass]

Seems like it depends on how loud your drummer is, and how loud the other instruments play on stage.

Since I have an 8 ohm cabinet I find I want ~500 watts at 8 ohms, so I need a ~“800 watt” amp.

 

[Pat Harris]

I want headroom, not volume. Hard hitting transients on low notes take a ton of power. More watts + more speaker coverage gets me clean headroom. I want a Ferrari that I can drive at 45mph, but when I need to punch it, I've got the power to do so without it breaking a sweat.

 

[azureblue]

These days, I'd say no. I went through the mega watt bass amp stage way back when (2400 with 4 - 15's, 2 - 10 cu ft boxes - yay roadies), and I don't have the desire for my low notes to shake my chest anymore . I have 500 with 2 - 12's and barely use all of that.

 

[azureblue]

I'm remembering an old rig which I toured with back in the '90's. A 4X12 on top of a center port 2X15 with a 400W, 2 ch. power amp and some Yamaha or BBE preamp depending. Sometimes I just used the 4X12. But I don't remember ever really pushing that rig even outdoors, it was always enough headroom. By the time you get into a room that justifies that level the FoH is usually pretty decent and the sound guy is having you run lower level anyway. Guitarists had Marshall stacks usually and I more than kept up. Would not qualify that as "need". It was cool at the time and stupid loud and solid and clean but now an 800W amp fits in a backpack. Now a 2X12 or 4X10 is really loud. And I think kids today don't buy into the health benefits of sticking your head in front of giant speaker walls. What's with that?

LOL - I learned that if you back up to your bass cabs, all the sound goes right past you..

 

[ZedLepp]

Do you plan on playing any big outdoor gigs or Metal?
I had a 1000w power amp and two 4x10's and was still being drowned out by two Marshall full stacks.

 

[eliascalles]

most of the time I use 350 watts into 2x10's, but I sub for a dub/dance/reggae band occasionally and I use his rig (800 watts into 4x10s) and for that band which is an 8 piece, all outdoor gigs, no PA support for bass (or rather, they have subs and an ok system but the bass though it sounds like crap), I am very happy to have the power. my little 2x10 combo would not suffice. cheers.

 

[Hounddog409]

That rig should cover pretty much any need. Just curious, how hard did you have to push the amp? Those linear pots just keep on giving!

This was a couple years ago, but if I recall correctly I has the main at 12...1 oclock. Somewhere in there.

So say 50%

 

[Monkey]

Besides a jazz trio, most of my gigs are with a reggae band. For years, I used a Markbass LMIII with 1 or 2 fEARful 12/6s. We often played outdoor gigs and festivals, and there were many times (especially when I used to use Aguilar GS112s) when I could have used more power. Many outdoor gigs had no PA support and my BL would often ask me to turn up (I love it when that happens!).

Of course, there are almost no gigs now, but I bought a Markbass Ninja amp (1000 watts at 4-ohms) mostly because it can deliver 500 watts at 8-ohms into one of the fEARful 12/6s, which are not really efficient, but sound deep, rich, and loud. My aging back appreciates not having to haul both cabs.

For the vast majority of the gigs I play, I don't need over 500 watts, but I sure love having power available when playing reggae outside.

 

[agedhorse]

I want headroom, not volume. Hard hitting transients on low notes take a ton of power. More watts + more speaker coverage gets me clean headroom. I want a Ferrari that I can drive at 45mph, but when I need to punch it, I've got the power to do so without it breaking a sweat.

just note that if you are using that power to reproduce transients, it’s no longer headroom.

Headroom is power that is NOT used and remains in reserve should you need it. Once you use it, it’s no longer headroom.

 

[mikewalker]

I have the 400watt version of that (TX600) and over the past three years I have never been able to turn it all the way up. For a 'loud outdoor stage' I could see myself maybe springing for the latest 800W version. But that would only be the rare large outdoor stage that is not already strewn with heavy duty floor monitors and sidefills. (I don't think I have really even needed a stage amp since the early 2000s...)

** Disclaimer: I do like having a 3-12 vertical stack nearby to give me some extra twang and definition around ear level

 

[alaskaleftybass]

That thing looks utterly useless to me .

Back around 2004 GK put out a 2X12 combo that had a 700RB head. I had it. It sucked. I added another 2X12 cab to it (the one I'm presently using), and it still farted and rattled. I was playing in a very loud band at the time, but 4x12 and 700 watts should have been able to handle anything. That made me not a fan of GK.

Wow!

Most pro GK users find them very powerful and versatile. Sad that you had such a negative experience that you'll never try one again. I respectfully disagree with you on the functionality of the combo. It looks near perfect to me. To each their own...

 

[Liko]

I've played indoors and out, with and without PA support, using 300W without much issue. Luckily, I've had guitarists who know what 30W can do and don't even try to use all the volume they're capable of; one of my prior auditions, when I was first playing out, had a guy using a 100W 4x12, and he used all of it. The 300w 4x10 combo stack I was using at the time was barely audible against his amp and the drums.

So, it really depends as much on who you play with, and who you play to, as it does where you're playing and what kind of help you're getting. I can imagine some backwoods festival gig with SOS for the vocals and everyone else brings their own amplification to play out to 5 acres of people. In that situation, I totally see an 800W amp running two cabs' worth of speakers being absolutely necessary.

I have a formula I've relied on to know how much rig I need for the gig, worst-case, based on what else is pushing air on that stage:

1. Sum the wattages of all the tube guitar amps on stage. If the guitarists run the amps clean or get their grit from the preamp with the master volume backed off, you can get away with cutting this number in half.
2. Account for the drummer's "power"; assuming he's unmiked and knows how to play with some dynamic range, I usually add the average of all tube amp wattages from Step 1 (so if the guitarists have 30s, add another 30W to the number)
3. Add 1/4 the wattage of all solid-state amplifiers (i.e. keys), and of the PA tops if they can't help you. The quartering assumes 6dB clean headroom, which is the closest to peak that I've ever seen a sound engy push the main meter in live sound.
4. Add the numbers from Steps 1-3, and multiply by 2.
5. For speakers, I tend to want at least one cone per 200W, but no more than one cone per 50W. Remember that efficiency is measured at just one watt, and speaker drivers run into diminishing returns on volume for wattage very quickly, so if your amp power fits the estimate but it's still not enough, add cones.

My current band has two guitars (30 and 40W, not really pushing the power amps), a drummer who knows what he's doing, a vocalist singing through about 1000W, and me. By this formula, I should be looking at about 350W, and that's pretty close to what I bring. Remember this is a worst-case estimate; depending on a lot of other factors, you might not need half of that (and I usually don't turn the master volume up halfway on my gig combo), but transformerless Class D power is pretty cheap and lightweight these days, so unless you're hauling a ton of glass to and from your gigs, it's always better to have a little more than you think you'll need, especially for bass.

Under this formula, playing in a five-piece band with two 100W half-stacks, an animal on the skins in the backline, and keys/vocals running through 2000W of PA system that you still aren't allowed to DI into, 800W into a full stack of 10s is not too much rig for the gig. However, in this situation you're already dealing with some serious problems in amplification. If this is what your band brings, and it's honestly not enough for the venue, beefing up stage rigs is not the solution; you need to be investing in the PA to give you a system that you can pump everything into, including the bass. Adding subs and expanding the board is the smart investment at this point, over adding to your own individual rig. Once you've done that, you'll likely find everyone can turn way down on stage, save your own hearing, and still carry the venue.

 

[DJ Bebop]

I just acquired a used WD-800 and took it to practice with an 8ohm Revsound RS-210. This is replacing an Ampeg PF-800 which sounded great but the Mesa tone and control flexibility is just on a completely different planet. At 8ohm its 400 watts and plenty loud, and sparkling clean if I want, but if the requirement arises, I can add a Revsound RS-115 for the full 800. Do I need it 800 watts? I don't know, but it's like having a big turbocharged engine, it's nice to know you have whatever you need when you might. 7lbs, it's so light I had to put rubber under it to keep it from walking off my cab.

Yep, I run my WD with an Aguilar GS 112 as my 'big' can nowadays and an Eden CX 110 for a practice, acoustic rig. I'll run mine at the 2-ohm setting for even fewer watts, I think it's 300 watts there. Are 800 watts overkill since I don't even use them? IDK but that tone from it iz da kine brah!

 

[DJ Bebop]

I'm going to take back what I said there regarding the hard wiring... I know nothing about amps. He told me he did something to assure the connections were good (possibly something I misunderstood as "hard wiring") and its worked fine since. As I said in the post where I wrote about this, we think the last time I had issues it had to do with the cables and not the head - but I just want to feel confident. I honestly never felt safe with this head after my experience with the 500.

I hear ya, as I said here, (maybe), I love my Carvin BX1500, still have it and it runs but, that cable thing.
At first, I just left the screws out of the top so I could open it up and wiggle those cables if needed

But, that's behind me with the WD-800

 

[agedhorse]

I've played indoors and out, with and without PA support, using 300W without much issue. Luckily, I've had guitarists who know what 30W can do and don't even try to use all the volume they're capable of; one of my prior auditions, when I was first playing out, had a guy using a 100W 4x12, and he used all of it. The 300w 4x10 combo stack I was using at the time was barely audible against his amp and the drums.

So, it really depends as much on who you play with, and who you play to, as it does where you're playing and what kind of help you're getting. I can imagine some backwoods festival gig with SOS for the vocals and everyone else brings their own amplification to play out to 5 acres of people. In that situation, I totally see an 800W amp running two cabs' worth of speakers being absolutely necessary.

I have a formula I've relied on to know how much rig I need for the gig, worst-case, based on what else is pushing air on that stage:

1. Sum the wattages of all the tube guitar amps on stage. If the guitarists run the amps clean or get their grit from the preamp with the master volume backed off, you can get away with cutting this number in half.
2. Account for the drummer's "power"; assuming he's unmiked and knows how to play with some dynamic range, I usually add the average of all tube amp wattages from Step 1 (so if the guitarists have 30s, add another 30W to the number)
3. Add 1/4 the wattage of all solid-state amplifiers (i.e. keys), and of the PA tops if they can't help you. The quartering assumes 6dB clean headroom, which is the closest to peak that I've ever seen a sound engy push the main meter in live sound.
4. Add the numbers from Steps 1-3, and multiply by 2.
5. For speakers, I tend to want at least one cone per 200W, but no more than one cone per 50W. Remember that efficiency is measured at just one watt, and speaker drivers run into diminishing returns on volume for wattage very quickly, so if your amp power fits the estimate but it's still not enough, add cones.

My current band has two guitars (30 and 40W, not really pushing the power amps), a drummer who knows what he's doing, a vocalist singing through about 1000W, and me. By this formula, I should be looking at about 350W, and that's pretty close to what I bring. Remember this is a worst-case estimate; depending on a lot of other factors, you might not need half of that (and I usually don't turn the master volume up halfway on my gig combo), but transformerless Class D power is pretty cheap and lightweight these days, so unless you're hauling a ton of glass to and from your gigs, it's always better to have a little more than you think you'll need, especially for bass.

Under this formula, playing in a five-piece band with two 100W half-stacks, an animal on the skins in the backline, and keys/vocals running through 2000W of PA system that you still aren't allowed to DI into, 800W into a full stack of 10s is not too much rig for the gig. However, in this situation you're already dealing with some serious problems in amplification. If this is what your band brings, and it's honestly not enough for the venue, beefing up stage rigs is not the solution; you need to be investing in the PA to give you a system that you can pump everything into, including the bass. Adding subs and expanding the board is the smart investment at this point, over adding to your own individual rig. Once you've done that, you'll likely find everyone can turn way down on stage, save your own hearing, and still carry the venue.

Wow, even I think that’s over the top complicated

Fabulously creative however

 

[garp]

With apologies to the recently-retired Arlo Guthrie: "You can get anything you want, at..."

 

[dbsfgyd1]

LOL - I learned that if you back up to your bass cabs, all the sound goes right past you..

And heaven only knows how much havoc is happening in the house..LOL!!!

But, that’s exactly why at age 68 I can still hear.

 

[Rip Van Dan]

OP: Nah... 400 Watts RMS is plenty.

There is a qualifier though, and that is "with the right speakers". Those acoustic 360/361 and 370/371 were amazingly loud with just 200-watts each. I had a Standel amp that also used powered speakers back in 1971-76. It had two 15" speakers in it and was a bass reflex cabinet with 4 round ports vertically alongside the speakers. It actually had two 100-watt amps inside, one for each of its 15" CTS speakers.

It was also ungodly loud like the acoustics and two of those 200-watt set-ups would be louder than just about any 400-watt set-up I can think of now days. I once turned it all the way up and hit a low E because the salesman said it wouldn't distort if I did and the Fender Bassman amp I had distorted if you turned it above #7 on the dial. He was right, no distortion at all. It about shook everything off the walls in their "Bass Cavern", but I did walk out of there with it and used it for the next two years of our tour.

You can see a fair bit of it in the pic below from 1971-72. It would absolutely bury that Vox Super Beatle amp next to it if I turned it above about 9 o'clock (#3 on the dial). My '65 Jazz sounded great through it. Another case of the perfect match of speakers to amp. So yeah, you don't need more than 400-watts if it's an acoustic 360/361 or a Standel MCIIb with two SAM30b cabs...I would recommend roadies though