Does fretboard wood make a consistent difference in tone that you can hear?

[Stevorebob]

About what, genius?

Look, my friend. If my middle-ground stance offends you in some way, I apologize. But you could drop the attitude. There is no reason to be confrontational here. And if you have trouble with that, there are people who can help you.

Back on topic: There is not an abundance of well-controlled research here. The lack of scientific study does not prove or disprove that there is a tone difference in fretboard wood or that there is not a difference. And without that we must rely on our experience. That experience is different and leads us to different conclusions. It's healthy to share experiences so we can learn from each other. It's healthy to listen to those with whom we disagree — it broadens our knowledge. TalkBass is a great place for discovering other viewpoints based on their experiences. We don't all have to agree; but it's a better place if we get along.

Oh, about that very clever "genius" remark: Thank you; most don't have the good judgement to see me as you do.

 

[MtManiac]

Look, my friend. If my middle-ground stance offends you in some way, I apologize. But you could drop the attitude. There is no reason to be confrontational here. And if you have trouble with that, there are people who can help you.

Back on topic: There is not an abundance of well-controlled research here. The lack of scientific study does not prove or disprove that there is a tone difference in fretboard wood or that there is not a difference. And without that we must rely on our experience. That experience is different and leads us to different conclusions. It's healthy to share experiences so we can learn from each other. It's healthy to listen to those with whom we disagree — it broadens our knowledge. TalkBass is a great place for discovering other viewpoints based on their experiences. We don't all have to agree; but it's a better place if we get along.

Oh, about that very clever "genius" remark: Thank you; most don't have the good judgement to see me as you do.

Dude. I'm also middle aged - not seeing why that's relevant. I'm not the one who started the confrontational bit, you said I should see someone about that - about what? You belittled my comments about science and facts. You're getting back what you gave me, my friend.

There's been a lot of snark in this thread from the people such as yourself who are insisting that facts don't matter as much as your own personal experience, which is somehow superior to my 32+ years of playing a wide variety of basses and seeing zero relevant difference from type of fretboard wood. I started my posts in this thread stating simply that, and was immediately challenged and put down, without any knowledge of my level of experience, just assumptions that my experience is less than someone who believes it matters. I responded ok, present some facts and something measurable, tell me which harmonics align with which attributes, and got more snark and defensiveness. I dropped out and a week later it's the same BS - zero facts, all snark.

The person making outrageous claims is the person who owns the responsibility to provide proof. If I said aliens built the pyramids, it would be me who would have to prove it, not you to prove that they didn't. If you say rosewood is warmer than maple - in the presence of even un-scientific evidence to the contrary - the burden of proof is on you. Show me the evidence, show me which frequencies align to warm or bright, show me how they're reproducible across many instances of instruments, and you've won your argument. Tell me your experience is somehow better than mine, despite knowing nothing about mine, and you've just painted yourself as arrogant and superior. Thus: "genius". Yours is the position in need of defense here; there's been several blind tests on Talkbass, all of which show nobody can actually tell which wood is warmer than another. The people arguing that it matters always surface at that point with nitpicks to the methodology of the test, but never seem to post their own test. Why don't you put your time and effort where your mouth is and post a blind test?

 

[TN WOODMAN]

I don't like to call myself a genius but don't protest when others do.

 

[tfer]

Where did I say asphalt is a useful guitar building material?

Look, dude - if you have some facts, lay em on me, and I'll agree you're right. There haven't been any yet. There was a report posted that said construction matters (not the topic being debated) and the guy who posted agreed it was irrelevant to the topic. There were a couple of physics videos posted arguing that type of fretboard wood doesn't matter, and there's been nothing to refute any of that stuff except anecdotes and opinions.

A Strat still has three pickups, which have magnets, and even if you're not using all three pickups in the signal, the magnets are still affecting the strings. If you want to prove a hypothesis, you have to control variables. Of course a SG and a LP sound different. Of course a P bass and a PJ sound different. Of course two identical P basses sound different. Prove that it's because of the type of fretboard wood.

My point in comparing teles and strats is simple.

This conversation STARTED as a question about fretboard material. It morphed into a tonewood discussion.

You (and others) have consistently stated that woods don't matter. That a guitar or bass could be made out of cardboard (posted earlier in this thread - probably wasn't you, but it was posted...) and it would sound like any other guitar, because all that matters are the strings and pickups.

If you truly believe that having the magnetic pull from an extra pickup is going to affect the sound enough to change a tele into a strat, but that the resonances from the construction materials don't make a difference, then you've left me utterly speechless.

There is no scientific test that will prove that tonewoods make a difference, because there is no demand to fund one. Show me a scientific test that shows that they don't matter. One that isn't a guy in a basement with a whiteboard, and recorded on an iPhone.

Because if that counts, then give me 20 minutes and I'll be right back with mine.

I posted a video earlier that show a luthier who built 2 models of the same guitar, and he used the same strings, hardware - he even used the same bolts from one instrument to the other.

They sounded markedly different.

I don't need a study - I can use my ears. I also trust that guys who've built THOUSANDS of basses by hand have a greater understanding than you or I ever will. Their livelihoods and reputations depend on their knowledge of their craft.

"They are just trying to upsell you on woods." Except that their prices for their instruments, regardless of material used, are incredibly similar. If you want a beautiful flame maple cap (which both say contribute very little to sound, and is for appearances only) you'll pay for it, but their base models using combinations of ash, alder, maple and rosewood are within a couple of percentage points from each other.

 

[tfer]

Dude. I'm also middle aged - not seeing why that's relevant. I'm not the one who started the confrontational bit, you said I should see someone about that - about what? You belittled my comments about science and facts. You're getting back what you gave me, my friend.

There's been a lot of snark in this thread from the people such as yourself who are insisting that facts don't matter as much as your own personal experience, which is somehow superior to my 32+ years of playing a wide variety of basses and seeing zero relevant difference from type of fretboard wood. I started my posts in this thread stating simply that, and was immediately challenged and put down, without any knowledge of my level of experience, just assumptions that my experience is less than someone who believes it matters. I responded ok, present some facts and something measurable, tell me which harmonics align with which attributes, and got more snark and defensiveness. I dropped out and a week later it's the same BS - zero facts, all snark.

The person making outrageous claims is the person who owns the responsibility to provide proof. If I said aliens built the pyramids, it would be me who would have to prove it, not you to prove that they didn't. If you say rosewood is warmer than maple - in the presence of even un-scientific evidence to the contrary - the burden of proof is on you. Show me the evidence, show me which frequencies align to warm or bright, show me how they're reproducible across many instances of instruments, and you've won your argument. Tell me your experience is somehow better than mine, despite knowing nothing about mine, and you've just painted yourself as arrogant and superior. Thus: "genius". Yours is the position in need of defense here; there's been several blind tests on Talkbass, all of which show nobody can actually tell which wood is warmer than another. The people arguing that it matters always surface at that point with nitpicks to the methodology of the test, but never seem to post their own test. Why don't you put your time and effort where your mouth is and post a blind test?

A blind test was posted, and every single person who said that they could hear a difference voted exactly the same.

But that doesn't matter...

 

[Stevorebob]

Dude. I'm also middle aged - not seeing why that's relevant. I'm not the one who started the confrontational bit, you said I should see someone about that - about what? You belittled my comments about science and facts. You're getting back what you gave me, my friend.

There's been a lot of snark in this thread from the people such as yourself who are insisting that facts don't matter as much as your own personal experience, which is somehow superior to my 32+ years of playing a wide variety of basses and seeing zero relevant difference from type of fretboard wood. I started my posts in this thread stating simply that, and was immediately challenged and put down, without any knowledge of my level of experience, just assumptions that my experience is less than someone who believes it matters. I responded ok, present some facts and something measurable, tell me which harmonics align with which attributes, and got more snark and defensiveness. I dropped out and a week later it's the same BS - zero facts, all snark.

The person making outrageous claims is the person who owns the responsibility to provide proof. If I said aliens built the pyramids, it would be me who would have to prove it, not you to prove that they didn't. If you say rosewood is warmer than maple - in the presence of even un-scientific evidence to the contrary - the burden of proof is on you. Show me the evidence, show me which frequencies align to warm or bright, show me how they're reproducible across many instances of instruments, and you've won your argument. Tell me your experience is somehow better than mine, despite knowing nothing about mine, and you've just painted yourself as arrogant and superior. Thus: "genius". Yours is the position in need of defense here; there's been several blind tests on Talkbass, all of which show nobody can actually tell which wood is warmer than another. The people arguing that it matters always surface at that point with nitpicks to the methodology of the test, but never seem to post their own test. Why don't you put your time and effort where your mouth is and post a blind test?

Hey, buddy, I did not initiate the confrontation. You did — you called my post snark.

I have never claimed that my experience trumps anyone's here. I respect your, and others', experience that fretboard wood makes no difference. I also respect Sadowsky and Tobias', and others', experience that it does. Me, in my 45 years of playing, I've noticed some difference, but I'm not here to say my experience is better than anyone's. I will say that Sadowsky and Tobias' have experience with many, many more bass guitars than I (but much of it maybe un-amplified), but I'll guess that I've probably played in live and recorded settings — "in a mix" — more thad the two combined (and always amplified in some way). Now, I'm not here to put anyone down about their experience. I'm here to learn from others' experiences. I'm open-minded on this issue. Really, I don't feel strongly one way or another.

Now, where you are wrong — let me say scientifically wrong — and where I do have a position is your insistence that without scientific proof, there is no difference. Well, science says that without proof or proof to the contrary we have neither proof nor disproof. No proof means no proof — now, that's simple. There is no scientific proof fretboard wood makes a difference in tone in an electric instrument and no scientific proof that it does not. (I believe I've said that now three or so times. I learned this from my father and brother, both scientists and, yeah, both geniuses — the real kind.) That's because the real science costs lots of money, and there just isn't much of a market value for the results, like there would be for, say pharmaceutical, aerospace or agricultural research.

I wish you no ill will. Peace and respect my bass-playing brother.

Oh, and thanks again for saying "genius." I just can't hear that enough. (Couldn't help myself.)

 

[TuneSalad666]

I believe so.

It makes sense to me that the material a given bass consist of will have an influence on how the strings vibrate and therefor what the pickups pick up.

If that weren't the case there wouldn't be as distinct a difference between for example solid and hollow body instruments, a consistent and easy recognizable difference which is not something variations in pickups and other electronics would be able to explain.

How much influence it has I can't say though and you should probably not expect people to ever agree on that, some will even insist that before mentioned difference is somehow an illusion or due to some sort of magical undefined properties of the different instruments.

 

[toowrongfoo]

Here's what I always thought, sue me if I'm wrong.

Rosewood is considered, by many to be "warmer" and ebony and maple are considered by many to be a little brighter. Absolutely do not know about Pau Ferro or others. My experience is of what I wrote, but that doesn't make it true. If it's just perception, that's fine too. I just play the things. I judge my instruments on how much I like the sound and how well they play.

 

[MtManiac]

A blind test was posted, and every single person who said that they could hear a difference voted exactly the same.

But that doesn't matter...

But the difference they heard is opposite of what "everybody" says about rosewood and ebony. Any two different basses will sound equally different. 100% of the people who said they heard a difference was wrong about what that difference should have been.

 

[MtManiac]

My point in comparing teles and strats is simple.

This conversation STARTED as a question about fretboard material. It morphed into a tonewood discussion.

You (and others) have consistently stated that woods don't matter. That a guitar or bass could be made out of cardboard (posted earlier in this thread - probably wasn't you, but it was posted...) and it would sound like any other guitar, because all that matters are the strings and pickups.

If you truly believe that having the magnetic pull from an extra pickup is going to affect the sound enough to change a tele into a strat, but that the resonances from the construction materials don't make a difference, then you've left me utterly speechless.

There is no scientific test that will prove that tonewoods make a difference, because there is no demand to fund one. Show me a scientific test that shows that they don't matter. One that isn't a guy in a basement with a whiteboard, and recorded on an iPhone.

Because if that counts, then give me 20 minutes and I'll be right back with mine.

I posted a video earlier that show a luthier who built 2 models of the same guitar, and he used the same strings, hardware - he even used the same bolts from one instrument to the other.

They sounded markedly different.

I don't need a study - I can use my ears. I also trust that guys who've built THOUSANDS of basses by hand have a greater understanding than you or I ever will. Their livelihoods and reputations depend on their knowledge of their craft.

"They are just trying to upsell you on woods." Except that their prices for their instruments, regardless of material used, are incredibly similar. If you want a beautiful flame maple cap (which both say contribute very little to sound, and is for appearances only) you'll pay for it, but their base models using combinations of ash, alder, maple and rosewood are within a couple of percentage points from each other.

It definitely was not me who said cardboard would be identical to a wood instrument.

You *don't* need a study. I've consistently said that if you can hear a difference, you're not wrong. I'm not trying to argue that point. The point I've consistently been asserting is that those differences are useless to anybody else, because they're only meaningful to you. You can describe them in terms of anything objectively quantifiable, and we've also shown here that terms like warm and bright have zero consistent meaning from luthier to luthier or from experienced musician to experienced musician. You might as well say it sounds yellow or "sweet" or more cheerful.

 

[MtManiac]

Hey, buddy, I did not initiate the confrontation. You did — you called my post snark.

I have never claimed that my experience trumps anyone's here. I respect your, and others', experience that fretboard wood makes no difference. I also respect Sadowsky and Tobias', and others', experience that it does. Me, in my 45 years of playing, I've noticed some difference, but I'm not here to say my experience is better than anyone's. I will say that Sadowsky and Tobias' have experience with many, many more bass guitars than I (but much of it maybe un-amplified), but I'll guess that I've probably played in live and recorded settings — "in a mix" — more thad the two combined (and always amplified in some way). Now, I'm not here to put anyone down about their experience. I'm here to learn from others' experiences. I'm open-minded on this issue. Really, I don't feel strongly one way or another.

Now, where you are wrong — let me say scientifically wrong — and where I do have a position is your insistence that without scientific proof, there is no difference. Well, science says that without proof or proof to the contrary we have neither proof nor disproof. No proof means no proof — now, that's simple. There is no scientific proof fretboard wood makes a difference in tone in an electric instrument and no scientific proof that it does not. (I believe I've said that now three or so times. I learned this from my father and brother, both scientists and, yeah, both geniuses — the real kind.) That's because the real science costs lots of money, and there just isn't much of a market value for the results, like there would be for, say pharmaceutical, aerospace or agricultural research.

I wish you no ill will. Peace and respect my bass-playing brother.

Oh, and thanks again for saying "genius." I just can't hear that enough. (Couldn't help myself.)

If "snark" is so offensive, you might employ a tone that isn't snarky. You might want to re-read your posts. You quoted my post. Do we need to define what "snark" means, just like I've been asking someone to define "warm" or "bright" with respect to fretboard tonewoods?

Why can nobody do that? It surely doesn't need a ridiculously expensive clinical study to connect ten or so necks to the same body and measure output with an oscilloscope, especially for luthiers like Roger Sadowsky and Mike Tobias (who again, contradict each other).

If you can hear a difference and it's meaningful to you, then I will not say you're imagining things or making it up. I just say what's meaningful to you in terms of "warmth" or "bright" attributable to type of fretboard wood is 100% meaningless to anybody else. It just isn't a fact. It's your opinion. You're entitled to it - but you can't call it a fact and expect everyone to agree with you when you offer nothing to demonstrate that it's a fact except more opinion.

 

[MordBass]

Sorry, genius was sarcasm. If "snark" is so offensive, you might employ a tone that isn't snarky.

Or do we need to define what "snark" means, just like I've been asking someone to define "warm" or "bright" with respect to fretboard tonewoods?

I had a snark.... really useful on an acoustic guitar and when you clip is on so that its behind the headstock, it doesnt look goofy

 

[GrapeBass]

My sweetie put honey in my Earl Grey this morning, tasted sweet. Then she gave me one with sugar and it still tasted sweet. I'm not sure if it was because honey is sweeter than sugar or if sugar is sweeter than honey.

If I saw a tree fall in the forrest, do I need a scientific study to prove it to my friend who was in another province?

A good question could be
- does a finished (lacquered) rosewood fretboard sounds the same as an unfinished, but treated one (tung oil as an example)?
- does an unfinished (treated, like with tung oil) maple board sound the same as a finished one (lacquer or what have you)

I believe it because I heard it, many times... since around 1980 when I started to pay attention.

 

[Stevorebob]

Sorry, genius was sarcasm. If "snark" is so offensive, you might employ a tone that isn't snarky.

Or do we need to define what "snark" means, just like I've been asking someone to define "warm" or "bright" with respect to fretboard tonewoods?

Darn, I thought you really thought I had superior intellect. Now I'm crushed.

Any snark — I thought it was humor; crushed again — was directed at both sides of the demand for science. And I'm not offended.

This is too much to get worked up over, really. Peace and respect.

 

[MtManiac]

Here's what I always thought, sue me if I'm wrong.

Rosewood is considered, by many to be "warmer" and ebony and maple are considered by many to be a little brighter. Absolutely do not know about Pau Ferro or others. My experience is of what I wrote, but that doesn't make it true. If it's just perception, that's fine too. I just play the things. I judge my instruments on how much I like the sound and how well they play.

Why are ebony and maple brighter?

A few sound clips were posted in another thread asking people to vote on which was ebony and which was rosewood, or who couldn't tell a difference. It's a flawed study, obviously, but everyone who voted that they could tell a difference was 100% wrong.

 

[MordBass]

Also... is it just me or is it telling that people tend to associate the expected tone of wood with the visual aesthetic of it?

 

[GrapeBass]

Why are ebony and maple brighter?

A few sound clips were posted in another thread asking people to vote on which was ebony and which was rosewood, or who couldn't tell a difference. It's a flawed study, obviously, but everyone who voted that they could tell a difference was 100% wrong.

Ebony is a very dense wood. Pao Ferro is somewhere between rosewood and ebony.

Maple is usually 'finished' with a poly and rosewood is typically not, although Rickenbacker does.

 

[DigitalMan]

I interpret the question and poll to specifically mean can you as an individual tell the difference in sound based on fingerboard material. It's not scientific or abstract. It doesn't ask about theoreticals. It's just about you, the respondent as an individual, and what you believe your ears can detect.

What's interesting to me is the 50/50 split.

It appears that everyone who voted yes believes 100 percent of the respondents. In other words, if someone says they can, then they can. If they say they can't, then they can't. It's a function of hearing and cognition.

It also appears that everyone who voted no believes 50 percent of the respondents. In other words, if you voted no, then obviously. And if you voted yes then you are somewhat delusional.

I believe 100 percent of the respondents are correct because the root question is what does someone believe about their own perceptions. However, I voted no because as much as I deeply care about bass tone and the many nuances that I hear whenever the slightest change is made, I still cannot claim to specifically detect a difference in character that I can attribute to fingerboard material.

What I believe about what other people believe is outside of the scope of the question.

 

[Stevorebob]

Also... is it just me or is it telling that people tend to associate the expected tone of wood with the visual aesthetic of it?

Perhaps with maple and rosewood, but not with rosewood and ebony.

 

[tfer]

Why are ebony and maple brighter?

A few sound clips were posted in another thread asking people to vote on which was ebony and which was rosewood, or who couldn't tell a difference. It's a flawed study, obviously, but everyone who voted that they could tell a difference was 100% wrong.

A tighter grain structure allows higher frequencies to resonate easier.

An aluminum baseball bar and a wooden one sound different when hitting a ball. They are almost exactly the same size and shape, and yet the aluminum one rings, while the wooden one doesn't. The difference is the frequencies that each material resonates at - the grain structure of each absorbs different frequencies.