Drums bleeding into vocal mic live...

[Topkat13]

I suppose asking her to sing louder and the drummer to play softer is out of the question.

 

[logdrum]

Do it like NPR Tiny desk. Put the drummer to the side

 

[NoSlapForYou]

I don't think a different mic is going to help. Shure dynamic mics are famous for their rejection of background noise. That's why the SM58 is used at most live venues and why the SM7B is used for podcasting.

Most other mics are going to be far more sensitive to background noise. It seems like the issue is that she sings so quietly, you're having to turn the gain way up, which in turn is creating more bleed? So she probably needs to sing louder. Also is she right up on the microphone? That could help if she's not already doing that.

The drummer may also need to play quieter. Or if he's mic'd, just turn him down. Or maybe the sound guy has to applying a limiter to his drums to squash their dynamic range. Not sure how technical the setup is or if that's even an option.

 

[logdrum]

OP asked for a mic suggestion and some EQ. He also 'they" are pretty loud not the drummer specifically. So this needs more explanation. If bass and guitar are also loud, are they loud through the monitors or they are hearing the house sound that loud, hence the subtle complaint about the sound guys. Maybe they need to get back playing with amps. The responses have gone the tangent as if this was a bigger production when he indicated they play in corners of pubs. I am still trying to picture pretty loud in a tiny space

I think the problem statement is not so clear and everybody went into solution mode pretty quickly and some have already engineered complex technical solutions.

 

[Leigh Semmens]

So many ideas, if mine has been suggest, please ignore me. Whilst I cannot offer any immediate fixes, if the singer is half way good, she may benefit from some formal vocal training. Too many good singers don't realise how much effort is required to get a good volume and sound with others. I'm a hopeless singer, but had some training when in High School from a couple of very good vocal coaches. It's amazing what a little training can do.

FWIW a small stage is always going to be an issue.

 

[Camarillo]

There is not so much you can do.
You can eq out the snare without destroying the sound of the voice as well, they are both in the mid range.
I different mic wouldn't help. Even if a less hot one. You would need more gain, and you're back from the start.
If the stage is small there will always be bleeding.
A plexiglass around the drummer would be the only option I think.

 

[RyanSaranich]

These comments about your singer are right- they DO need to sing louder. That’s the prime issue.
Also, you should definitely try to place them in a place where the drums aren’t necessarily behind the singer. Microphone bleed.
Depending on what you’re able to accomplish with the latter, you COULD try to get your hands on something like a DPA d:facto vocal mic. They are designed with a high angle of rejection; as in, they tend to block out more of the ‘outside’ sounds, so that your sound person gets less bleed overall. We use them on the tour I play on for this reason. 9 people on stage, and we like isolated sounds. It’s not going to be ::the:: fix, but it may help you get closer to your desired goal.

 

[pepj]

This is why you dont want a SM58.

 

[mcnach]

Have you tried a plexi shield in front of the drummer to muffle from the mic a bit?

always a good idea to keep the drummer in a cage

 

[Marc DLarosa]

Have her wear one of these. 10 bucks, and it'll block out any sound coming from behind her.
Dog MX™ Plastic E-Collar | dog First Aid & Recovery | PetSmart

Sorry... 100%, totally KIDDING!!!
But... yeah... my friends think I'm pretty funny.

As others have sated, redirection/placement of the mic, and your singer (who I'm sure is AMAZING), is most likely the best solution for the situation.
I'm positive that we would all love to hear some clips from different perspectives. As in, from the board, front of house, stage, etc...

Then, we may be able to help better.

Peace,
Marc

 

[LowRick]

Yep.. thats drummers for ya. in my experience you have to be absolutely clear to drummers so tell him or her, in short sentences and clearly articulated, to go bleed someplace else.

 

[Jay2U]

Try a similar mic pointing (slightly) away from her, in anti phase.

 

[el murdoque]

The only thing that will help is for your singer to sing louder. A bigger stage would also help somewhat.

And no, EQing the drums out will definitely not help anything. Vocal frequencies are the same as the worst offender, which is the snare.

This is not your soundman's fault.

This is, unfortunately, true.
If you want to do something about it, there's two fixes.
One costs very little: Have that singer sing louder. Find out why she's not loud enough and work on that. Maybe with a coach.

The other is a lot more expensive: When the singer won't change, you need to change everything else. Switch the whole band to IEM. Ideally, have the drummer play electronic drums. All the other instruments go amp-less, so the stage volume gets reduced to the bare minimum. You won't have issues with feedback from monitor wedges any more and your singer will be able to hear herself better. There will be bleed from the drums if the drummer refuses to play on plastic drums, but it will be more manageable for both FOH and the monitor mixes.
Also, the stage gets bigger because ampless bands usually need less real estate.


I've encountered more than one scenario where the female singer would be not loud enough, then have problems hearing herself on a loud stage because the mic/monitor can't take more gain because the bleed from the stage will cause feedback - as a result the singer feels less secure and sings even softer.

 

[Freddy T]

Look into the Telefunken M80 mic. It's less sensitive than other dynamic mics, it has a supercardiod pattern and has a reduced proximity effect. It's designed to sing up close without getting the boomy vocal proximity effect. Instead you get enhanced singer clarity and detail and more noise rejection when you eat the mic. They M81 does the same thing but is warmer than the M80; the M80 is brighter. I own the M80 and it does sound great and helps increase noise rejection when you eat the mic.

If your singer is open to suggestions, then suggest that she work on her vocal projection; it's a technique she can learn that's necessary in rock. You're basically a rock band right (mtv hits)? It doesn't mean she needs to sing louder in the sense of increasing her power. She needs to learn to make her voice cut through the mix, without straining, to the point where she can hear it clearly over the acoustic mix (in her head). She should be projecting effectively at all dynamic levels, even quietly. It sounds like she's talented so she can definitely pick this up with some instruction. If she's not willing to work on this, then that's cool, but she most definitely does not have the heart of a rock singer! I personally don't enjoy working with or watching non-rock singers try to do rock. I enjoy watching them do what they do well.

I don't know how many cymbals your drummer uses, but if you could get him/her to compromise on using just one, then it would help the sound person zero in to cut those frequencies from your singer's mic. Also, another poster mentioned low volume cymbals which are a great idea for a low volume gig. The M80 mic rec is not a singular solution but can definitely contribute to cutting some noise. It can also probably handle cutting at 500 Hz, the loudest snare frequency, and still sound excellent for vocals.

 

[Bluzeman90]

Only one reply even mentioned this: in small locations, why are the instruments in the PA?

We had an almost identical problem to OP...not only vocals too quiet vs. Instruments, but stage volume (thru monitors) was often excessive. Everything was competing with everything else. People in audience kept saying vocals too quiet. Even though I had 2 vocalists with Gain at 1 or 2 o'clock...yikes. (fader at Unity). Always on the edge of feedback.

We're a rock band playing in various size places but none super large. After years of putting everything in the PA I tried going vocals-only plus kick. It totally solved our issue. We all have good amps and we've learned that in almost all cases that's enough to carry the day. We play loud but not stadium loud. Our drummer is not a basher but plays loud...the right volume depending on the song. So we're often loud.

In the largest room we ever played, thru technical issues, the drum mics couldn't be used. Everything else was in the PA. I record every gig. That gig was recorded from almost 150 feet away. The drums were still on top of everything. We still mic the kick; it makes it sound better but isn't crucial IMO. I've played drums on many gigs...I never was micced and I'm certain everything was else.

Part of our problem was those 2 vocalists using inadequate mics. We're all on Beta 58s now and no problemo. That along with doing vocals only in PA totally solved our problem.

I am not a purist on vox only PA. There are def occasions where everything needs to be in the PA. IMO for our band the vocals MUST be on top. It's what people expect and it's also our strong suit.

Hope this helps...one band's experience

I don't know what PA or genre you're playing, but kick should ALWAYS be mic'd up, otherwise it might as well not exist. Everything run through the PA is going to always give a better sound than just running kick and vox. The beaming of amplifiers alone is going to cause you trouble.

 

[frankie5string]

See if you can rent or borrow a Hypercardioid mic like the Beyerdynamic V70d, AudioTechnica AE6100 or ATM610a to try.

Your singer should put her bottom lip on the basket, keep her hands away from the basket and sing directly into it. That should get you there. It has excellent rejection as long as she kisses the mic and it's got a bit of a midrange bump so if she's a soft singer, it'll still punch through.

 

[dirtychinchilla]

This post blew, up. Thanks for the multitude of suggestions, which I'm gradually getting through.

@steve_rolfeca, thanks for the summary. Much appreciated. Answering some specific points. The drummer will probably make adjustments - he's happy to take on board feedback and work towards a solution.
The sound guy is the singer's husband and frankly, him being there allows her to be there. Their relationship is shaged. See the 5th point below. He only works with us. He's very controlling and a bad seed.

None of us are actually paid; everything we make goes back into the band.

A few takeaways from me, just so you know I read it all

• A different mic is unlikely to make much difference, although I do think having a hotter mic would help with the vocal volume issue. In short though, she needs to sing louder
• Our drummer would probably be fine using thinner sticks. He's a great drummer and not unreceptive to feedback. He doesn't have an electric drum kit, though, and we aren't going to buy him one, so that's off the cards
• I'll look into the plexiglass shields. That could be a good solution, and I don't think it would be a big deal if the volume to the audience is also diminished. I wouldn't think about one of those full studio isolation shields, but the small circular ones could certainly be an option
  
• I really like the idea of the out-of-phase microphone above the drums. However, I'm not sure that our sound guy could execute that
• (just on the sound guy, he's our singer's husband and whilst he is kind enough to do the sound for us, he treats her like poopie. we're waiting for her to serve divorce papers on him. He may or may not be receptive to our suggestions. My experience suggests not, but he does try and do a good job for us. He just isn't a trained sound engineer)
• I'll talk to her about singing louder. She had lessons previously so I'd imagine she'd be open to it, if she has time
• Our drums aren't mic'd for most gigs. The venues are typically too small for that, although there are exceptions
• At rehearsals, we don't have this issue as the room is typically much bigger
• Our previous drummer had mutes on his drums. I think that might make sense here

@drpepper thanks for the tip on the gates. I'll pass that on to the sound guy.

To answer a specific question, we play through the PA because it gives us control. I'm not running cab-less, but I don't have my cab very loud. Same with our guitarist. Most of the sound is projected through the PA, not our cabs. If we can get the drummer onto IEMs, I'll start playing cabless.

But, I think it comes down to three things, which I think are achievable:

• Our singer needs to sing louder and improve her mic control
• The drummer needs to be quieter

 

[Lync]

A noise gate is the tech to help with this issue. I use one with my IEM’s since when I stepped away from the mic the drums were taking over my mix. You don’t need as much as you think gate-wise for it to work. Just experiment.

 

[groovaholic]

A desperate and convoluted method that probably won't work that great and takes a lot of setup: Set up a single drum overhead. It should be as far away from the drums as the vocal mic is. Instead of sending the vocals to the mains, send the vocals to a bus. Send the single drum overhead to the same bus and not out the mains. The only place this overhead should go is to the vocal bus. Invert the phase of the drum overhead to cancel itself out of the vocal track. Send the bus to the mains.

Convoluted, yes, but this is essentially how they mic up traffic reporters in helicopters.

The two mics are picking up mostly the same sound but mixed out of phase - so the sound that is common to both mics (the drums or helicopter) will cancel out and the sound that is only in one of the mics (singer or reporter) will go through.

 

[FullumMusic]

Convoluted, yes, but this is essentially how they mic up traffic reporters in helicopters.

The two mics are picking up mostly the same sound but mixed out of phase - so the sound that is common to both mics (the drums or helicopter) will cancel out and the sound that is only in one of the mics (singer or reporter) will go through.

Oh yeah, phase cancellation is used a lot of places for a lot of reasons. I've used it plenty of times to do different things like extract vocals from a track for a sample, or remove the vocals from a track for a sample, amongst other things. But it's convoluted and not necessarily the best option for this situation because expensive helicopter comms systems are specifically designed to do this and they don't completely provide perfectly clear clean voice audio. Using carefully edited digital samples to extract or remove vocals can be nudged sample by sample and still doesn't always completely isolate the vocals from the audio. Sticking a mic up on an open stage at a dive bar or small venue and trying to use it to phase cancel the drums out of the vocals will probably be a lot of effort for the band or sound engineer, with a lot of trial-and-error finding the spot where the drum mic will cancel out the most from the vocals, and they'll have to find that sweet spot before every show. It'll never be in exactly the same spot. And after all that, the results will probably be minimal at best. And as the singer's mic moves around stage and changes distance relation and angles to the drums, it'll be more or less effective. A lot of the other techniques i mentioned will probably work better.