Drums bleeding into vocal mic live...

[Bassngtr]

Excellent thread. TB is always very helpful.

I want to share a couple thoughts, mostly off OP's original topic. I mostly play bass these day, but I'm a drummer too, and have gigged a lot on drums.

All of the suggestions about what the drummer should do (could do) are valid and could be used, and could help this situation. Suggestions included: asking the drummer to buy and switch over to an electronic kit, play very different sticks, cover parts of their kit with towels, use fewer cymbals, etc....

I'll make an (admittedly lousy) analogy: To solve the stage sound issues. the bassist needs to:
- Play a 4 string instead of a 5 string.
- Switch to a passive bass instead of active.
- Play with fingers instead of a pick.
- Pluck harder all the time, or softer all the time.
- Play a short-scale bass.
- Play an acoustic bass

As a bassist I may or may not want to go along with these. They're fairly minor changes but...

My point is the drummer-related suggestions in this thread are offered by people who do not play the drums. Each of the bassist' suggestions I've listed, though minor, are fundamental changes to bass playing technique and player satisfaction. As a drummer the situation is in control of my playing - playing the right dynamics for the situation is the best solution for everyone.

 

[steve_rolfeca]

This post blew, up. Thanks for the multitude of suggestions, which I'm gradually getting through.

...The drummer will probably make adjustments - he's happy to take on board feedback and work towards a solution.

...Our previous drummer had mutes on his drums. I think that might make sense here

Drum prep can go a long way, and it will pay off in every room you play...

Sorry about the internal strife in your band- that can be a massive stress on everyone concerned. Here's hoping that you'll all come out the other side, and get to enjoy your Fleetwood Mac moment!

 

[bdplaid]

Have you tried a plexi shield in front of the drummer to muffle from the mic a bit?

This. A sound shield. And GATE her mic, so it only comes on when she sings.

 

[brstma]

If it hasn't been suggested yet a drum shield should help a lot. Can cost a bit but worth it when needed

 

[bigjames]

The SM58 is a staple vocal mic, but you MIGHT want to try to 58 beta. I have both and find that the beta's super cardioid pattern is more directional and has less feedback and therefore may pick up less of the ambient drum sounds. Also, it has a hotter output (~4db), which might help with a quiet vocalist. Just a thought.

 

[KJMO]

Untitled_design_11_1024x1024.png (800×800) (shopify.com)

These are the ones I've seen used most effectively in a church and in small live venues locally. I've never seen the big circular ones live. I like the way these can connect to the cymbal stand.

 

[FullumMusic]

This post blew, up. Thanks for the multitude of suggestions, which I'm gradually getting through.

@steve_rolfeca, thanks for the summary. Much appreciated. Answering some specific points. The drummer will probably make adjustments - he's happy to take on board feedback and work towards a solution.
The sound guy is the singer's husband and frankly, him being there allows her to be there. Their relationship is shaged. See the 5th point below. He only works with us. He's very controlling and a bad seed.

None of us are actually paid; everything we make goes back into the band.

A few takeaways from me, just so you know I read it all

• A different mic is unlikely to make much difference, although I do think having a hotter mic would help with the vocal volume issue. In short though, she needs to sing louder
• Our drummer would probably be fine using thinner sticks. He's a great drummer and not unreceptive to feedback. He doesn't have an electric drum kit, though, and we aren't going to buy him one, so that's off the cards
• I'll look into the plexiglass shields. That could be a good solution, and I don't think it would be a big deal if the volume to the audience is also diminished. I wouldn't think about one of those full studio isolation shields, but the small circular ones could certainly be an option
  
• I really like the idea of the out-of-phase microphone above the drums. However, I'm not sure that our sound guy could execute that
• (just on the sound guy, he's our singer's husband and whilst he is kind enough to do the sound for us, he treats her like poopie. we're waiting for her to serve divorce papers on him. He may or may not be receptive to our suggestions. My experience suggests not, but he does try and do a good job for us. He just isn't a trained sound engineer)
• I'll talk to her about singing louder. She had lessons previously so I'd imagine she'd be open to it, if she has time
• Our drums aren't mic'd for most gigs. The venues are typically too small for that, although there are exceptions
• At rehearsals, we don't have this issue as the room is typically much bigger
• Our previous drummer had mutes on his drums. I think that might make sense here

@drpepper thanks for the tip on the gates. I'll pass that on to the sound guy.

To answer a specific question, we play through the PA because it gives us control. I'm not running cab-less, but I don't have my cab very loud. Same with our guitarist. Most of the sound is projected through the PA, not our cabs. If we can get the drummer onto IEMs, I'll start playing cabless.

But, I think it comes down to three things, which I think are achievable:

• Our singer needs to sing louder and improve her mic control
• The drummer needs to be quieter

Gonna be a bit nit-picky: a "hotter" mic won't help. It'll just pick up more of everything.
Otherwise i think the 3 things you boiled it down to are the crux of it. And honestly, to me, singing louder comes in 3rd place. 1st would be mic control and 2nd is lowering volume of drums getting into the mic.

One tip i give people who are mic-phobic or not familiar with using a mic (like regular non-musician humans who have to give a speech or presentation with a mic and have no idea anything about mics) is the Thumb-to-Chin method. Holding the shaft of the mic (don't cup the screen), point your thumb to your face. Touch your thumb to your chin. That's where the mic should be. (See attached pic). It's something physical they don't have to think about. They just hold their thumb on their chin and the mic stays in the correct spot.

This method is also nice because when they inevitably start holding the mic down by their belly button and it's just a room full of feedback, i don't have to say anything through the monitors or yell at them. They usually look at me in desperation and i just make a fist and hold my thumb to my chin and they immediately figure out what's going on and hold the mic properly again.

Also, the closer it is to a sound source, the more it rejects everything else. Without looking through my Yamaha Sound Reinforcement Handbook, i think it was: Two sound sources at equal volumes, for every 3 or 6 feet closer to one sound source, that source will be twice as loud as the other through the mic. My numbers are gonna be off but the idea holds.

 

[RattleSnack]

• A desperate and convoluted method that probably won't work that great and takes a lot of setup: Set up a single drum overhead. It should be as far away from the drums as the vocal mic is. Instead of sending the vocals to the mains, send the vocals to a bus. Send the single drum overhead to the same bus and not out the mains. The only place this overhead should go is to the vocal bus. Invert the phase of the drum overhead to cancel itself out of the vocal track. Send the bus to the mains.

Great post, and this is actualy great idea. Don't know how good it would work in real world, but that's how modern smart phones remove (most of) the background noise.
They have two mics, one on the lower part (where you speak), and other one on the opposing upper side. They are out of phase, thus eliminating common sound: background noise.

 

[FullumMusic]

Great post, and this is actualy great idea. Don't know how good it would work in real world, but that's how modern smart phones remove (most of) the background noise.
They have two mics, one on the lower part (where you speak), and other one on the opposing upper side. They are out of phase, thus eliminating common sound: background noise.

Yeah. Really not a useful solution in a dive bar type venue. Maybe on a multi-million dollar mega-tour.

And yeah, the new Air Pod Pro 2s are using i think 8 or 9 mics in each ear bud for the noise cancellation and it works SOOOOO GOOOOOD. I can hear low volume music on the subway platform when the train arrives. But now i'm getting slightly off topic.

 

[frankie5string]

Great post, and this is actualy great idea. Don't know how good it would work in real world, but that's how modern smart phones remove (most of) the background noise.
They have two mics, one on the lower part (where you speak), and other one on the opposing upper side. They are out of phase, thus eliminating common sound: background noise.

It won't really work, actually. There's a fair bit of DSP behind the second cancellation mics used on cellphones. The processing behind it is also adaptive. It's not just a matter of shoving an anti-phase mic in there because the sound is coming from so many directions at once. If anything, you'll end up with a weird frequency "bump" or dip from doing that.

 

[TheArchitect]

Electronic drumkit

 

[seamonkey]

Edrums. Drummers scoff, but Keyboard players use electric pianos. And even forego big Hammond organs (Thank gawd )

Also check into Wave's PSE, or Neve Primary Source Enhancer
Or other similar processing.

These are threshold expanders. These aren't gates, these are expanders. There's no gate off that happens.

 

[Scott Shaw]

My old lead singer sang really soft and used an EV ND 760? (I think). Great sounding mic, but it was extremely sensitive. My Beta 58 would have been a much better choice, but he liked the way his EV sounded. I constantly dealt with cymbal wash. I guess my point is that there are better mic choices that can help. A shield can help a lot also, but it needs to be tall enough to prevent any direct path between the drums and vocal mic.

 

[WI Short Scaler]

Look into an optogate. Mutes the mic when your face isn’t in singing position.

Not the best solution, but my band uses them and they help us a ton.

I had never heard of optogate. Pretty cool. My voice is the quietest of the 3 of us but since we have a cajon instead of drums it's not too much of an issue.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

I would not even suggest the two mic phase cancellation trick to your soundman, too tricky to get set up and work somewhat correctly at every show in a different location and it sounds like it's out of his scope anyway.
Some time ago I did an experiment with it and it does work, never did it at a live show.

I going to say gating will be hit and miss at best......go back to my earlier post.

A "hotter" mic as said many times will just bring up everything equally not much different then just bumping up the input gain some.

What is her mic technique, how close does she sign to the mic and is it pointed straight at the mouth

 

[tmvt]

There is no one fix it all solution. Each technique adds a small increase in quality and reduction in stage noisel So you have to use them altogether to add up to anything noticeable.

 

[Wasnex]

A "hotter" mic as said many times will just bring up everything equally not much different then just bumping up the input gain some.

Sorry but this is not correct.

The Beta 58 has a tighter pickup pattern than an SM58, and properly used this will provide an incremental reduction in bleed from the drums. A competent audio tech will adjust the trimmer on the channel strip to set the level of vocal mics to a nominal level, so it doesn't matter if the Beta 58 is a hotter mic.

The SM58 has a cardioid pickup pattern

The Beta 58 has a hypercardioid pickup pattern.

Per the user guides, the Beta 58a has 4.5db hotter output.

So if you overlaid the pickup patterns without compensating for the different signal levels, it might look something like this.

The hypercardioid mic is a bit more sensitive for most of the pattern above the X axis. So as you and others have said, it will pick up more of pretty much everything.

If you adjust for a nominal level for both mic types, it will look more like this.

Notice the level is matched on axis. The hypercardioid has better rejection from about 30 degrees to almost 120 degrees on the right side of the graph, and from about 330 degrees to almost 240 degrees on the left.

In my experience, the difference in off-axis rejection between an SM58 and Beta 58 is often more significant than these graphs indicate. I believe part of the reason is because people often hold an SM58 a significant distance from their mouth, so the intended source is weaker. With a Beta 58, you either sing right on top of the mic are it's not going to pick up your voice very well...and yes this is a problem for some vocalist who are used to using an SM58.

 

[Windreaper]

I'll make an (admittedly lousy) analogy: To solve the stage sound issues. the bassist needs to...

My point is the drummer-related suggestions in this thread are offered by people who do not play the drums. Each of the bassist' suggestions I've listed, though minor, are fundamental changes to bass playing technique and player satisfaction. As a drummer the situation is in control of my playing - playing the right dynamics for the situation is the best solution for everyone.

Yes, it is a poor analogy. The stage sound of an electric instrument can be controlled by turning a knob, and any decent player will do so.

Drummers with a professional mindset are aware of stage volume issues. Nobody wants to play with a basher who brings heavy "projection" cymbals to a bar gig (the drumming equivalent of diming a Marshall stack). Appropriate dynamics combined with appropriate equipment goes a long way. Playing satisfaction has a place and it's the rehearsal space.

Suggesting e-drums is indeed a bit of a stretch, though. I don't mind playing them personally, and they're fine for pop/rock, but high-quality kits are expensive (can't justify dropping 5k on a top V-Drum kit) . I wish everyone used them, though.

 

[Mike Caldwell]

Sorry but this is not correct.

The Beta 58 has a tighter pickup pattern than an SM58, and properly used this will provide an incremental reduction in bleed from the drums. A competent audio tech will adjust the trimmer on the channel strip to set the level of vocal mics to a nominal level, so it doesn't matter if the Beta 58 is a hotter mic.

The SM58 has a cardioid pickup pattern
View attachment 4909093
The Beta 58 has a hypercardioid pickup pattern.
View attachment 4909095
Per the user guides, the Beta 58a has 4.5db hotter output.

So if you overlaid the pickup patterns without compensating for the different signal levels, it might look something like this.

View attachment 4909118
The hypercardioid mic is a bit more sensitive for most of the pattern above the X axis. So as you and others have said, it will pick up more of pretty much everything.

If you adjust for a nominal level for both mic types, it will look more like this.
View attachment 4909119
Notice the level is matched on axis. The hypercardioid has better rejection from about 30 degrees to almost 120 degrees on the right side of the graph, and from about 330 degrees to almost 240 degrees on the left.

In my experience, the difference in off-axis rejection between an SM58 and Beta 58 is often more significant than these graphs indicate. I believe part of the reason is because people often hold an SM58 a significant distance from their mouth, so the intended source is weaker. With a Beta 58, you either sing right on top of the mic are it's not going to pick up your voice very well...and yes this is a problem for some vocalist who are used to using an SM58.

True if talking about different mic patterns.
At higher frequencies the SM58 and Beta58 start getting closer in pickup pattern out to around 70 degrees off axis.

For the OP do you have any video links of a show you could post.

 

[lokikallas]

Drummer needs the sneeze guard.