Get a used narrower pattern mic like an AKG D790. They’re cheap and good and will reject more sound
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Drums bleeding into vocal mic live...
- Thread starter dirtychinchilla
- Start date
I mean - the real answer is for the drummer to play like an adult and lower their volume to the point that there isn't a bleed issue.
Has anyone ever been to a small club show and gone 'man I just can't hear the drums'??
Has anyone ever been to a small club show and gone 'man I just can't hear the drums'??
The OM7's are a good sounding mics but they need to be worked very close, I'm thinking her style would not work well with those.....at least at this time.
Has anyone in the band tried to suggest singing close to mic and little louder to her?
I used to believe this. But in certain genres, for a drummer to play with any sort of authority means he's got to actually hit the drums with a little power. Even while hitting them loudly, if the singer is singing with decent projection and up into the mic you should be able to keep the signal to noise ratio at a place where you're not getting enough bleed to create a problem.
I feel like a lot of people haven't watched a shy singer standing a foot away from a mic and afraid to get close to it. To me that's the most likely cause of this kind of situation. If the singer is on the mic, the drums shouldn't be bleeding through all that much because the mic does not have to cranked enough for that to happen.
Only one reply even mentioned this: in small locations, why are the instruments in the PA?
We had an almost identical problem to OP...not only vocals too quiet vs. Instruments, but stage volume (thru monitors) was often excessive. Everything was competing with everything else. People in audience kept saying vocals too quiet. Even though I had 2 vocalists with Gain at 1 or 2 o'clock...yikes. (fader at Unity). Always on the edge of feedback.
We're a rock band playing in various size places but none super large. After years of putting everything in the PA I tried going vocals-only plus kick. It totally solved our issue. We all have good amps and we've learned that in almost all cases that's enough to carry the day. We play loud but not stadium loud. Our drummer is not a basher but plays loud...the right volume depending on the song. So we're often loud.
In the largest room we ever played, thru technical issues, the drum mics couldn't be used. Everything else was in the PA. I record every gig. That gig was recorded from almost 150 feet away. The drums were still on top of everything. We still mic the kick; it makes it sound better but isn't crucial IMO. I've played drums on many gigs...I never was micced and I'm certain everything was else.
Part of our problem was those 2 vocalists using inadequate mics. We're all on Beta 58s now and no problemo. That along with doing vocals only in PA totally solved our problem.
I am not a purist on vox only PA. There are def occasions where everything needs to be in the PA. IMO for our band the vocals MUST be on top. It's what people expect and it's also our strong suit.
Hope this helps...one band's experience
We had an almost identical problem to OP...not only vocals too quiet vs. Instruments, but stage volume (thru monitors) was often excessive. Everything was competing with everything else. People in audience kept saying vocals too quiet. Even though I had 2 vocalists with Gain at 1 or 2 o'clock...yikes. (fader at Unity). Always on the edge of feedback.
We're a rock band playing in various size places but none super large. After years of putting everything in the PA I tried going vocals-only plus kick. It totally solved our issue. We all have good amps and we've learned that in almost all cases that's enough to carry the day. We play loud but not stadium loud. Our drummer is not a basher but plays loud...the right volume depending on the song. So we're often loud.
In the largest room we ever played, thru technical issues, the drum mics couldn't be used. Everything else was in the PA. I record every gig. That gig was recorded from almost 150 feet away. The drums were still on top of everything. We still mic the kick; it makes it sound better but isn't crucial IMO. I've played drums on many gigs...I never was micced and I'm certain everything was else.
Part of our problem was those 2 vocalists using inadequate mics. We're all on Beta 58s now and no problemo. That along with doing vocals only in PA totally solved our problem.
I am not a purist on vox only PA. There are def occasions where everything needs to be in the PA. IMO for our band the vocals MUST be on top. It's what people expect and it's also our strong suit.
Hope this helps...one band's experience
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A hyper cardioid mic can make a huge difference.
The SM58 has a huge response pattern, so it picks up almost everything in a 10' radius (hyperbole, but close enough).
A Sennheiser e945 or Audix OM7 would do wonders to clean up the mix.
The only issue with a hyper cardioid is that she has to functionally eat the mic for it to respond.
Proper mic technique can be learned.
There's a number of great hyper cardioid's on the market that might work better for her voice, so it's worth a look see.
But really, you should start by firing the drummer.
The SM58 has a huge response pattern, so it picks up almost everything in a 10' radius (hyperbole, but close enough).
A Sennheiser e945 or Audix OM7 would do wonders to clean up the mix.
The only issue with a hyper cardioid is that she has to functionally eat the mic for it to respond.
Proper mic technique can be learned.
There's a number of great hyper cardioid's on the market that might work better for her voice, so it's worth a look see.
But really, you should start by firing the drummer.
Thanks very much for your suggestions. We are trying to eliminate mics. I run a DI, and the guitarist has just switched over to one, so no micced cabs. I have a mic for backing vocals, which is off on songs without BV. So we typically only have two or three mics on stage.
Moving her away from the drums isn't really an option. These stages are often small enough that I bang my elbow on his ride cymbal! And as you say, visuals aren't great.
I'll speka to the drummer about lighter sticks. He is a key part of the issue, but I don't think he's all of it. It's a rock gig after all, don't want him too quietand he's not the kind of drummer anyone would want to fire.
Have your drummer put a bar towel over his snare. My drums are in a building where three of the side are metal, so the snare can be quite loud. I put a bar towel across it, using two small metal spring clamps to keep it in place. Makes a big difference.
You could do the Grateful Dead trick where you have two mics. One with the pattern flipped. It will not sound that great but they used it when they were in front of their Wall of Sound.
Way over kill but here's a way.
Matched pairs of condenser microphones spaced 60 mm apart and wired in reverse polarity from each other. The vocalist sang into the top microphone, and the lower mic picked up whatever other sound was present in the stage environment. The signals were added together using a differential summing amp so that the sound common to both mics (the sound from the Wall) was canceled, and only the vocals were amplified.
Best advice is proper mic handling. Have her put it right up to her mouth so less sound can make it to the mic around her head and less distance from her mouth to windscreen make her vocal level as loud as possible over the noise floor of the stage. Have her point it directly into to her mouth also right to her lips not point up to the ceiling under her lips put signing right into it. Other then that and leverage from the mic pattern which can get you a little more bang for your buck but not a saving grace. It just comes down to pushing a little more over the stage volume.
Last resort when we would do backline gigs for the live production company I work for is a acrylic drum shield. It will cost some bones, they are a pain to maintain and carry and the sound will still hit the ceiling and bounce around if its a small stage but will stop a lot of the sound moving directly forward and into the mic.
Maybe also try having him use drum stick alternatives. Like the Promark Hot Rods or something along those lines.
Way over kill but here's a way.
Matched pairs of condenser microphones spaced 60 mm apart and wired in reverse polarity from each other. The vocalist sang into the top microphone, and the lower mic picked up whatever other sound was present in the stage environment. The signals were added together using a differential summing amp so that the sound common to both mics (the sound from the Wall) was canceled, and only the vocals were amplified.
Best advice is proper mic handling. Have her put it right up to her mouth so less sound can make it to the mic around her head and less distance from her mouth to windscreen make her vocal level as loud as possible over the noise floor of the stage. Have her point it directly into to her mouth also right to her lips not point up to the ceiling under her lips put signing right into it. Other then that and leverage from the mic pattern which can get you a little more bang for your buck but not a saving grace. It just comes down to pushing a little more over the stage volume.
Last resort when we would do backline gigs for the live production company I work for is a acrylic drum shield. It will cost some bones, they are a pain to maintain and carry and the sound will still hit the ceiling and bounce around if its a small stage but will stop a lot of the sound moving directly forward and into the mic.
Maybe also try having him use drum stick alternatives. Like the Promark Hot Rods or something along those lines.
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Dude, if you have that many drums that are bleeding, your drummer should get drums that aren't hemophiliac. Blood can ruin a mic. Also the drums could die.
The last few pages finally started to zero in on the technical difficulties of this situation.
But we're still skirting around band politics.
Years ago, I used to do performance coaching with youth bands, typically in medium-sized auditoriums or church sanctuaries. That often looks a lot like adult pub-band politics- everyone for themselves, more enthusiasm than technical knowledge, limited skill sets, volume wars, equipment and venue limitations, blame-shifting, etc.:
First, let's talk about that stage:
Not a workable situation in a club setting.
On to isolation:
Also probably not a workable solution in a small club. The drummer isn't like an amp- you can't just stuff him into a utility room in the basement and run a cable up the stairwell...
FOH:
And the singer:
Which brings us back to band politics:
But we're still skirting around band politics.
Years ago, I used to do performance coaching with youth bands, typically in medium-sized auditoriums or church sanctuaries. That often looks a lot like adult pub-band politics- everyone for themselves, more enthusiasm than technical knowledge, limited skill sets, volume wars, equipment and venue limitations, blame-shifting, etc.:
- It was hard to get them to understand that in a live performance setting, everyone has to give a little in order to get a good result.
- Simply insisting "this is how I play", or "this is the type of gear I use" doesn't cut it.
- Relative loudness was usually the biggest issue, and insurmountable if any single member was unwilling to compromise.
- Postage-stamp stage, making distancing exponentially more difficult, and bringing in much stronger early reflections off the side and back walls. Possibly a lower ceiling as well.
- Drummer who is "too good to fire".
- Vocalist with an intimate, low-key delivery.
- The group consider themselves a rock band.
- Potential improvement from mic swaps (cardioid vs supercardioid, dynamic vs condenser, etc.), or perhaps a new sound guy.
First, let's talk about that stage:
- A strong drummer on an acoustic kit can completely fill a small club without any help from the PA.
- E-drums aren't a magic bullet. They require big adjustments in technique.
- An overly heavy-handed drummer on an electronic kit will produce loud, clacky sounds similar to beaten tupperware. They'll also constantly overdrive the sensors, reducing dynamic range. Not necessarily an improvement in a small space, compared to an overloud but more pleasant acoustic drum sound...
- The normal 1 to 3 mic placement rules are almost useless for an authentic rock band on such a tight stage- early reflections off the floor, ceiling and walls mean that the entire area within 15 to 20 feet of the kit is going to be completely saturated with the drum sound.
- This has a bunch of implications:
- Putting up a short, non-absorptive plexi shield will change the tonality of the drum bleed, but barely touch the overall level.
- A supercardiod mic will produce a dB or three of reduction in the drum bleed hitting the vocal mic, but that's not enough to turn a mouse into a lion. If the singer doesn't have leather lungs, this may not be not their gig.
- Having the vocalist truly eat the mic is better than nothing, but once again, it's not a magic bullet. Drums are LOUD...
- EQ'ing out the proximity effect will reduce unwanted kick and floor tom bleed, but not the snare.
- A gate can prevent feedback when the singer's not singing or walks away from the mic, but once again, if the drummer's much louder than the singer, then they will be controlling the gate, not the singer.
- Other solutions, like the Grateful Dead trick can pick up a dB or two here and there, but once again, that was originally designed for huge stages. It can't overcome what is essentially a rehearsal room performance situation...
- A supercardiod mic will only be really effective if you acknowledge its pickup pattern- high but very narrow rejection directly behind the diaphragm.
- For best effect, you need to set up as a “Band in the round”:
- Singer facing the drummer directly, back to the audience.
- Mic stand height adjusted and angled toward the singer so the drums are dead-center behind the mic.
- Vocal monitor on a stand in front of the kit, so it’s also right in the dead spot behind the mic.
- Singer eating the mic- not a foot or even 3” away, but bottom lip almost resting on the screen.
- Singer and mic moved back far enough from the kit to create a situation where their voice is exponentially louder than the drums.
- With a quiet singer and a loud drummer, that could put the singer out on the dance floor.
On to isolation:
- Baffles between the drummer and vocalist will help. However, on a postage-stamp stage, especially in a corner, early reflections from the sides, top and bottom will blow right past the rejection pattern of any mic. So the baffles need to be more than a short screen:
- Plexi is a start, but thick absorbent stuffing behind the screen will help.
- So will adding full-height side walls and a roof.
- The walls, back and roof all need absorbent treatment, so we’re basically talking an iso booth for the drums.
- Speaking from experience with this, a rock drummer inside a booth that small, will require cooling. Since cooling vents also have to be treated to minimize bleed, you quickly run into size and placement issues.
- The drummer will also need a sophisticated monitor situation, which further increases cost and complexity.
- Unless the booth is extremely stiff and heavy, bleed from the booth will be audible out on the floor, and sound muffled and strange.
- The PA will have to be loud enough and EQ'd well enough to drown that out, or at least compensate for it.
FOH:
- If we're talking Behringer XR stage boxes, we're not talking an unlimited budget.
- The OP has articulated his dissatisfaction with specific things he's hearing, but I'm not sure that he fully understands what he's asking for.
- Here are some important considerations that should temper the band's expectations:
- Is the sound guy paid?
- If so, is it a living wage?
- Also, is he working for the band, or the venue?
- How much time does he get to work on mixes in that room when the club is closed?
- Is he dedicated to the band and attending every rehearsal, or only spending time with them during soundcheck?
- This all reminds me of an old racing adage: Speed costs money: how fast do you need to go?
- Turning the camera back around for a moment, let's look at the band's relationship with the sound guy:
- Setting up complex fixes like out-of-phase mics, isolation panels, testing different monitor and mic solutions, etc. requires money and time.
- How much does the band have invested in sound gear?
- Has the drummer offered to adjust his gear or his playing style in accordance with the band's needs?
- Ditto for the singer.
And the singer:
- A singer with a quiet, intimate delivery can sound amazing in a small club.
- What they can't do with sheer volume, they can accomplish through a larger-than-life stage presence.
- But that also requires a sufficiently flexible and skilled backing band:
- Some pros have an amazing ability to rock the socks off a small venue, without peaking the dB meters.
- However, song arangements have to change accordingly, requiring experience and self-discipline.
- Also, everyone has to be servant to the song. Check out interviews with Lee Sklar, to understand how that can look.
- Even then, the end result is typically roots music at most- not kick-ass Rock 'n Roll.
Which brings us back to band politics:
- If the drummer is "not the sort that anyone would want to fire", and if the singer isn't a leather-lunged belter, then you're stuck in a catch-22 situation.
- Something has to give:
- Some types of bands don't worry about the vocals being intelligible. Punk bands typically didn't used to give a f#$k...
- Although you can mitigate some of the sound issues that have already been highlighted to a certain extent, it will take commitment, money and time.
- Have you got the resources to make it happen?
- Fixing this will also take respectful communication amongst all of the members.
- Have those difficult conversations started yet, or is there just a general level of discontent and a fixation on getting a "better" sound guy?
- If conversation is already under way, is there a consensus view on where the band is going?
- If you can't afford the required technical fixes, are you going to reshape the band to adapt to the singer, or find a singer more in tune with the band's goals?
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Late to the party but I am on the "find a mic with a different pattern" train. Not sure it will work but I don't know what else you can do. Low pass filter to cut out some of cymbal bleed? Not sure how that would play with a female singer if she is in the higher register.
Otherwise, fire the drummer.
edit: oh and I also like the Garth Brooks head set mic idea. Then you can introduce dance moves without penalty.
Otherwise, fire the drummer.
edit: oh and I also like the Garth Brooks head set mic idea. Then you can introduce dance moves without penalty.
You could gate the everliving crap out of it and let her know if she doesn't sing loud enough it isn't going to open. It'll keep drums outta your IEMs and force her to sing louder. The downside is... It's gonna sound weird having a gate that strong, but might force her to learn good technique.
Excellent point.
"Silent stage" is certainly a good way to get a hi-fidelity sound and deal with mic bleed. But it puts a lot more pressure on the installer, the sound person, and the FOH system.
You can't half-ass silent stage, and a few aspects of that haven't been addressed by the OP in his comments yet:
- Has the band gone to IEM's with personal mixes, or are they still using wedges, which are another and yet-unmentioned source of bleed?
- How good is the house system? Where are we on the spectrum- well-tuned and placed line arrays, or speakers on sticks?
- Why are they trying to mix silent stage technology with mic'd and un-caged acoustic drums?
I'd also be willing to bet good money that a walk around the room would show hot spots and other anomalies in how the mix sounds and feels in different parts of the room.
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Oh I have as I try to keep the vocals somewhat in the mix and they always want their
voice brought up in monitors!!
The mic technique for people doing public speaking is a whole other story!!!
Here's an idea.....put the singer in an isolation booth on the stage
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It's been done, in a way...Oh I have as I try to keep the vocals somewhat in the mix and they always want their
voice brought up in monitors!!
The mic technique for people do public speaking is a whole other story!!!
Here's an idea.....put the singer in an isolation booth on the stage
The large manufacturers now produce low volume drum heads and cymbals. They reduce volume by 70 to 80 percent. For about $100 you can get a full set of Rtom heads.
RTOM 10/12/14/16/22 in. Low Volume Mesh Head Pack
A set of cymbals can be had from Amazon for about $75.
Mute Cymbal Set Low Volume cymbal set Cymbal set 14'hi-hat+16"crash+18'crash+20"ride 5 Pieces Silver Drummer Practice Cymbal https://a.co/d/6hHTZtU
Obviously you will need a set of drum mics. We recently switched over for rehearsals and it's made a massive improvement.
RTOM 10/12/14/16/22 in. Low Volume Mesh Head Pack
A set of cymbals can be had from Amazon for about $75.
Mute Cymbal Set Low Volume cymbal set Cymbal set 14'hi-hat+16"crash+18'crash+20"ride 5 Pieces Silver Drummer Practice Cymbal https://a.co/d/6hHTZtU
Obviously you will need a set of drum mics. We recently switched over for rehearsals and it's made a massive improvement.
As an Amazon Associate, TalkBass may receive commissions from qualifying purchases made via links on this site.
It has to be done just right, though.
I've been in a number of places where all you get from the shield is a weird "drums floating down from the rafters" effect.
At least in my limited experience, most venues seem to find it easier to work with a fully-enclosed "drum shed", even though that brings it's own challenges with space, cost, communications with the drummer, etc.
Also, I'm still old enough to remember a time when good bands tended to work together for a good blend, instead of relying on a ton of space age nonsense!
On a related note, there are still lots of concert venues where you can hear great-sounding bands playing with only very light sound reinforcement and no volume control issues. Here's a picture of a concert I recently attended in Koerner hall in Toronto. Electric guitar and bass, acoustic upright, concert grand, plus a full drum kit in the same space as a small string orchestra and a live choir.
Not a rock gig by any means, but louder than a lot of classical and jazz combos, floor wedges, no click or IEM's, no balance issues, and the sound was amazing.
