Eddie Kramer on pedals.

[yodedude2]

Does this post count as trolling the effects forum since it basically says you shouldn't use effects? If you want to use less pedals because of this article then do it. My opinion is if I'm paying for the studio, legendary or not, the engineers job is to press record.

i didn't read his message that way at all...i read his advice against the 'overuse' of pedals, not that 'you shouldn't use effects'.

then again, i notice he's not a big fan of plug-ins either.

edit: jared said it better just above this post.

 

[wmhill]

Yeah - who is this Kramer dude to tell us what sounds good??!!
Obviously we are way more knowledgeable than him.

 

[Fuzzbass]

People are their own worst editors, and one of the jobs of a producer is to say "that's great lads but now let's try another way." A producer is not just a recording technician pressing the cue button; a producer is someone who shapes the entire recording. If bands did not need that service so near-universally, nobody would talk about the production or the producer because it would just be some dude who pressed record.

The complication is that the service provided by the producer can vary wildly. In a perfect world, the producer's priority would be art: ensuring that the musicians create something new and exciting and beautiful. However in the real world, the priority is usually money: the producer typically works for the record label, so the bottom line is record sales. Creativity/originality is discouraged, because the goal is to emulate the flavor-of-the-month. On corporate radio, so many bands sound ridiculously similar -- not just the music, but the timbre of the instruments. In pop country, vocal harmonies sound like synthesizers because of all the auto-tune... most hard rock bands on the radio are heavily produced to sound like Nickelback... etc.

I certainly agree that most bands DO need the guiding hand of a producer -- and artists typically have an inflated view of themselves; that's human nature. That said, truly great artists can produce themselves: all they need is engineers. There are numerous stories of great visionaries who had to fight against producers/industry execs who wanted to force them into a neat little box for easy public consumption.

 

[Jared Lash]

The complication is that the service provided by the producer can vary wildly. In a perfect world, the producer's priority would be art: ensuring that the musicians create something new and exciting and beautiful. However in the real world, the priority is usually money: the producer typically works for the record label, so the bottom line is record sales. Creativity/originality is discouraged, because the goal is to emulate the flavor-of-the-month. On corporate radio, so many bands sound ridiculously similar -- not just the music, but the timbre of the instruments. In pop country, vocal harmonies sound like synthesizers because of all the auto-tune... most hard rock bands on the radio are heavily produced to sound like Nickelback... etc.

I certainly agree that most bands DO need the guiding hand of a producer -- and artists typically have an inflated view of themselves; that's human nature. That said, truly great artists can produce themselves: all they need is engineers. There are numerous stories of great visionaries who had to fight against producers/industry execs who wanted to force them into a neat little box for easy public consumption.

The flip side is that when established bands are looking to tweak their sound or even reinvent themselves the best way to do that is to use a new and well regarded producer.

Just as with bassists or singers or songwriters, there are good and bad producers. Some producers just click with certain artists and some are flexible enough to pull the best out of almost any artist they work with.

 

[socialleper]

There's a surprise: an old guy thinks things sound better when they are more simple, like it was back in "his day." Way to break the mold.

I personally don't have a lot of room for modulation on my board. I have an Electric Mistress and then like 5 dirt pedals. You can't really hear it when I use modulation, so I don't bother, but that's me. There are guys that use that stuff in ways that aren't obtrusive. I'm not into long, drawn out shoe gaze stuff, but a guitarist can make tremolo, phaser, delay, and reverb pedals work for them. Effects are better these days at not chewing up your sound and making it sound sterile. I tend to think DAW plug-ins do, but that is a discussion for another day.

 

[Fuzzbass]

Point noted, Jared. In fact I should have made it clear that I never meant to imply that great artists never need production. There are many instances of music magic created by great musicians working with great producers (or producer/engineers like Tom Dowd)... and also by great producers working with less-than-great talent.

 

[Martin Lauzé]

NEED MORE PEDALS!

 

[Jared Lash]

Point noted, Jared. In fact I should have made it clear that I never meant to imply that great artists never need production. There are many instances of music magic created by great musicians working with great producers (or producer/engineers like Tom Dowd)... and also by great producers working with less-than-great talent.

Very true. I've been surprised by the number of times that I've listened to music (some which I liked and some which I didn't) and thought that the album mix was really good, only to find out that Andy Wallace was involved.

 

[BIG97BEN]

I have a bunch of pedals, spread across two boards. I bring both of those boards to everyone I do, because I use certain combinations of them to get different sounds. Just because I have two boards doesn't mean that I turn everything in at once and drone, and that also doesn't mean that I have anything against that (it can be pretty fun).

I get people, like you, who immediately ask me if I need all of this to make music every time I start setting my boards up, and every time I smile and just say yes. Then after the gig, it doesn't matter if it was in a bar, or a house party, or at church, or as part of a big band, or if I'm playing funk, or heavy metal, or rap everyone wants to come over and figure out how I sounded so good. I find ways to work a few in here, and a few in there, but I couldn't pick from them if I didn't have everything there to be used.

Just a heads up, people don't like your opinions because the majority of the time you harp about them being a millennial, hipster, child who's mom told them they were special too much, and who recieved trophies for participating in everything. Everything you don't understand gets boiled down to that.

A company doesn't answer emails very well: must be millennials

Person using too many pedals: must be a hipster who's mom hugged him too much

Don't understand their music: must have gotten too many participation trophies, and thinks everything they do is special.

Music isn't competition, and there are no trophies. It's just a form of expression like language, and as such, there are many different forms and they are all important to the people that speak them.

 

[lfmn16]

So let me get this straight. When you are giving feedback to people, they should listen to you, but when people are giving feedback to you, they are being blatantly condescending? I'm confused.

Welcome to Talkbass. Seems like a lot of people start threads these days askingfor feedback and then argue with anyone that doesn't agree with them.

 

[David Wilson]

people. behave.

closed for cleanup. also another note: as per the tb rules, dupe accounts will get you banned. choosing 'hilarious' dupe account names doesn't help your case either.

edit: reopened. keep it civil

 

[leegreenman]

Shoegaze Band’s Pedalboard Becomes Self-Aware, Demands Creative Control - The Hard Times

 

[NoxNoctus]

Yeah - who is this Kramer dude to tell us what sounds good??!!
Obviously we are way more knowledgeable than him.

View attachment 802678

This is the only Kramer in my life who has any impact on me to date. Any other Kramers are moot, and can go shove it.

 

[bassbrad]

I can certainly respect Eddie's opinion, he certainly had my basses sounding good the times I had sessions in his studio.

 

[bongomania]

Here's a different angle: I really like the Heptones album "Party Time", produced by Lee Scratch Perry. It has a fantastic sound, and most of the instruments are totally whomped and whirled by effects that Perry added to the mix. The guitars and horns are almost not even recognizable as such, they are so scrambled by vibrato and crazy EQ and filters. The effects, you could even say the OVERuse of effects, are part of what makes the album sound so amazing. But he left the bass and the vocals clean. Those clean sounds are ALSO what makes the album sound great. He knew what to mess with and what to keep clear.

If you listen to other Heptones albums that Perry did not produce, they mostly suck and are boring. They lack the artistic shaping he brought to the mix, including effects.

 

[Mosfed]

great troll thread.

 

[BigBobbyBass]

Wow, advice from a dude who hasn't done anything relevant in 25 years+ aside from rehashed Jimi Hendrix albums? I'll pass..

 

[Tourniquet Man]

Meanwhile MGR has kicked back with his popcorn...

 

[FretNoMore]

Somehow I had a feeling that response was coming. Of course people should use what they want. The point I was trying to make, however, was that if a legendary producer with 50 years of producing the biggest acts in rock says something about pedals, it does behoove us to listen. I've noticed a few threads recently with the general tone of "I'm cutting back" or "Thinning the herd," so I figured I'd post this as a positive motivating force for those who are doing that. Hey, if you wanna use 500 pedals to make your ambient noise rock, have at it. Just don't get pissed when no one cares to listen past the first 10 seconds of some dude alone in his bedroom making his "art."

Just as a personal aside Nshuman, I'd appreciate if you put me on your ignore list. Between you and Mosfed, there is a hell of a lot of negativity in your responses on my posts. It is very possible a lot of other people feel as you do about my posts, but no one is rude enough to be so blatantly condescending. Especially your little snip about me being the "resident demo expert" the other day. All that did was cause me to remove all my demos from soundcloud. Demos which a lot of people told me helped them out in deciding on a pedal. I will do the courtesy of putting you on my ignore list right now. Is there really a point to any bickering?

The very fact you enclose other people's endevours and choices in music making in quotation marks ("art") exposes your self centered and judgemental attitude. Not that it's a secret given your previous posts on music styles and cultures that you don't personally like or understand. Show some respect for other people's choices, and open your mind to other ways of doing things than your own.

 

[Funk³]

Somehow I had a feeling that response was coming. Of course people should use what they want. The point I was trying to make, however, was that if a legendary producer with 50 years of producing the biggest acts in rock says something about pedals, it does behoove us to listen. I've noticed a few threads recently with the general tone of "I'm cutting back" or "Thinning the herd," so I figured I'd post this as a positive motivating force for those who are doing that. Hey, if you wanna use 500 pedals to make your ambient noise rock, have at it. Just don't get pissed when no one cares to listen past the first 10 seconds of some dude alone in his bedroom making his "art."

Just as a personal aside Nshuman, I'd appreciate if you put me on your ignore list. Between you and Mosfed, there is a hell of a lot of negativity in your responses on my posts. It is very possible a lot of other people feel as you do about my posts, but no one is rude enough to be so blatantly condescending. Especially your little snip about me being the "resident demo expert" the other day. All that did was cause me to remove all my demos from soundcloud. Demos which a lot of people told me helped them out in deciding on a pedal. I will do the courtesy of putting you on my ignore list right now. Is there really a point to any bickering?

Ambient music, in my opinion, is fantastic. If someone wants to use 500 pedals or just one spacey reverb, then awesome, good for them. Don't be so critical just because someone doesn't play the same music as you, jeezus.