• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Eden Forum Disappears

#201
Rip Van Dan said:
I've had a couple of GK amps. The first one I had was a guitar amp that they made back in the 80's. My brother in law had it and it died. He said I could have it and it probably wouldn't be much to fix it. So I had if fixed and it cost me about $40 backs in the 90's. I actually used it as the head running two JBL 112 with all the way across horn speakers for a few gigs.

My son had used those JBL's for his DJ'ing until he got some more speakers and then he offered to let me use them. That was actually a really good amp and my bass through those JBL's just thumped. I put one over closer to our guitar player so he could easily hear me and he said, "Man your bass cab is kicking my butt! Why don't you move it back over by the other one." GK made a number of guitar speakers and a killer, tiny, 210 combo for guitars too (1985 or so).

I also got a GK Backline 250 amp (125-watts rms) in about 2006 and that was the most worthless piece of :poop: amp I ever used. GK usually, or at least used to, name their amps by the peak power they could produce. TI totally expected great things, and it was terrible. It was sold with a GK115bpx cab as the GK Brat Pack. It had a minimum ohms load or 8 ohms, so you couldn't add a second speaker cab to it...may as well have been a crap combo.

And to compound that problem, the 115 cab is very boomy and muddy. Their preamp is confusing to me as you can't really get any volume out of it clean and you must add their boost channel, which of course adds distortion. I'm sure others have figured out a good way to make it work, but my experience was terrible. I never could get the right mix of clean and boost to make it sound good at any level high enough for gigging. So I also ran an XLR to the board when I gigged it.

Back in about 1985 GK came out with their 800RB amp, which could put out a total of 400-watts rms. It could put out 300-watts into the "low" output and 100-watts into the "high" output. That was specifically done to facilitate "bi-amping" cabs. More specifically, it would send the lows to a bass cab and the highs to one of those huge horns we used to use in the 70's and 80's and you'd see on top of the "voice of the Theater" systems at your upscale Movie Theaters. There were just not a lot of full frequency cabs out then and this was a way to get good bottom end and sparkling highs - lots of definition and punch. It filled a niche back then. And then full-frequency cabs became the norm instead of the exception...

You still see bi-amping in PA and FOH systems but it's pretty much a waste of a cab in modern bass cabs. Modern bass cabs have built it tweeters and are full frequency cabs. If you use one "full frequency cab" for just the highs, all you're using is the tweeter from that cab and they woofer does nothing. And of course on the cab that your using for the lows, you're not using the tweeter. By using one cab for the lows and one cab for the highs, you're using 2 perfectly good, full frequency cabs, to produce the sound you could get out of just one of those full-frequency cabs by itself. Now days, with the quality of full-frequency cabs, bi-amping bass cabs is in most cases just a waste of money.
Click to expand...
Very accurate description of the GK 800RB (which i own and described a bit)....I run it full range at 300 watts and leave the 100 watt amp unused though i may very well try it with some kind of 8 ohm speaker.

Mostly i run the 800RB at 4 ohms...it is a legendary amp and is powerful like the Eden Metro and not far off tonewise comparing the Metro to the 800RB, except when pushed the 800RB is indeed dirtier, the "hitting the rails" sound which if one does a search, there is loads on the net about this amp.

Honestly i have not played many GK amps but have heard plenty in clubs and on stages....the 800RB is legendary, it is very small and not heavy for a 300 watt amp designed in the 80's....when pushed it does its thing! i cant imagine using a less powerful amp than 300 really punchy watts with my 65 Epiphone Newport and its neck only 'mudbucker'...the Metro is more powerful but i rarely push either hard....I actually do use some dirt and fuzz at lower volumes ONLY lol! I wont risk blowing anything!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Corbusier and Rip Van Dan
#202
Hello everyone, I recently acquired a used 2x10 xst 8 ohm.. my question is two fold, Is there any preferred years for the cabs? Also, what is the 30th anniv model? I came across a 2x10 XLT 30th anniv model any upgrades to it? Thx
 
#203
I have a WT-400 and have used it since 2003. It's been through the ringer and never failed me on the gig. But now lately, it is acting up. 2 years ago I actually had it serviced for the first time. The pots were acting up. The local tube amp "guru" worked on it, replacing the tube. I'm a little skeptical of his work.

My practice time is limited with it right now and don't get to use it as much to completely diagnosis it. I realize that there are a lot of factors that may cause things to go haywire in your signal, so I have some work to do to diagnosis it. I believe I got good cables in place and my bass pre-amps have fresh batteries, but I will go back and double check that stuff.

Right now, It seems like the volume fluctuates. Sometimes, it is solidly loud and other times it is audible, but weak. It seems to fluctuate randomly while I practice over a 1 hour period. Towards the end of a session, the low register gets weaker and sometimes distorts/breaks-up. The higher register comes out clear. I feel the urge to boost the Master to compensate, but that shouldn't be necessary. Over all I feel the amp has been running more noisy then when I was using it a lot years ago. I set my gain below the clip light flashes, and run the Master pretty quiet for personal practice. I keep the EQ mostly flat, maybe cutting out some of the high end. I have tried different basses and all behave weird. Sometimes my Thumb will have a more pronounced distorted signal. Not sure if that is because of it's active setup.

Any thoughts on what it could be? What are the symptoms of a bad tube in a WT-400? Are there still official Eden Service Centers out there? Specifically in Colorado? I was thinking about officially retiring this Amp, but it seems silly because it is all I ever wanted in my sound and for it to sit broken would be sad.

Thanks for the help!
 
#205
Corporate Boy said:
I have a WT-400 and have used it since 2003. It's been through the ringer and never failed me on the gig. But now lately, it is acting up. 2 years ago I actually had it serviced for the first time. The pots were acting up. The local tube amp "guru" worked on it, replacing the tube. I'm a little skeptical of his work.

My practice time is limited with it right now and don't get to use it as much to completely diagnosis it. I realize that there are a lot of factors that may cause things to go haywire in your signal, so I have some work to do to diagnosis it. I believe I got good cables in place and my bass pre-amps have fresh batteries, but I will go back and double check that stuff.

Right now, It seems like the volume fluctuates. Sometimes, it is solidly loud and other times it is audible, but weak. It seems to fluctuate randomly while I practice over a 1 hour period. Towards the end of a session, the low register gets weaker and sometimes distorts/breaks-up. The higher register comes out clear. I feel the urge to boost the Master to compensate, but that shouldn't be necessary. Over all I feel the amp has been running more noisy then when I was using it a lot years ago. I set my gain below the clip light flashes, and run the Master pretty quiet for personal practice. I keep the EQ mostly flat, maybe cutting out some of the high end. I have tried different basses and all behave weird. Sometimes my Thumb will have a more pronounced distorted signal. Not sure if that is because of it's active setup.

Any thoughts on what it could be? What are the symptoms of a bad tube in a WT-400? Are there still official Eden Service Centers out there? Specifically in Colorado? I was thinking about officially retiring this Amp, but it seems silly because it is all I ever wanted in my sound and for it to sit broken would be sad.

Thanks for the help!
Click to expand...
Like Armin said, start with cleaning all the 1/4" jacks (DeOxit 5 red label can and set the nozzle spray adjustment to L for "light" works great). Reason he said to pay particular attention to the Effects loop jacks is because they are rarely used by a lot of bassists, so there's not 1/4" plug moving in and out of that jack to knock off any bits of corrosion. The signal path on your WT400 passes through all those jacks and it just takes one to screw everything else up. Best to clean them all on an annual basis.

Regarding the tube he replaced. The OEM tube is a Ruby 12ax7, but any good 12AX7 will do. I've only replaced mine once in the last 10-years and I did it as a bit of preventive maintenance, not because there was a problem (I kept the old tube as a back-up!). The tube is actually in the impedance matching section of the amp and it operates within very specific parameters, so it's not really stressed. Odds are they will go microphonic if they go bad.

Rolling tubes (trying various brands) makes virtually no difference in sound as long as it's good quality (low-noise) because it is not overdriven. The new tube certainly didn't hurt, but it also obviously wasn't the problem. You'd be surprised what a good cleaning can clear up if you haven't been doing that. Let's hope that's all it is.

Otherwise you want to get it to an Eden authorized repair station where they know how to work on those amps. I'd suggest sending them an e-mail at: "[email protected]" Be sure to put "Eden Amp Repair" in the subject line so you actually get over to the Eden section. Give them name, address, and phone and ask where an authorized repair station is near you. They used to have a map showing repair stations but it was way outdated. The few they listed in the Seattle area no longer handled Eden repairs. I wrote to them and they gave me the contact info for the two places in Seattle area that were authorized and I confirmed that with a phone call to the repair stations.
 
  • Like
Reactions: BrentSimons, Bassmann1968, dabis and 1 other person
#207
MR.ATK said:
Hello everyone, I recently acquired a used 2x10 xst 8 ohm.. my question is two fold, Is there any preferred years for the cabs? Also, what is the 30th anniv model? I came across a 2x10 XLT 30th anniv model any upgrades to it? Thx
Click to expand...
no real upgrades per se just 30-years of making some of the world's best bass gear. However, if you already have the D210XST, that D210XLT would be a great addition to it. You get the best of both worlds when you run and XST cab with an XLT cab. The D210XST cab has the lowest and tightest low end that Eden makes (30Hz low frequency) and the XLT cab has the built-in low mid hump that sounds so good and gives it nice definition and presence in the mix. Together they are like a slice of heaven. So much so that about 10-years ago they changed their 810 cab from being an 810XLT to being an 810XT because they combined 4 XLT 10" speakers with 4 XST 10" speakers. They had noticed that their D810XLT sales had dropped off and a number of folks were combining a D410XLT with a D410XST instead. So the formalized that combination into one 810 cab. It's really a great sound. If you can get a good price on the D210XLT....snag it!
 
  • Like
Reactions: Treb and Bassmann1968
#208
agedhorse said:
Program power is a number that has no meaning for bass guitar applications IMO, it's simply derived from 2x the THERMAL power (specified in RMS metrics).

The 350 watt rating is THERMAL, and it's a "must survive" 2 hour test with a maximum specified mechanical damage (defined by TS parameter shift). When this spec is changed to a 200 hour test, the numerical rating generally falls by between 25% and 40%. IMO, 2 hours is not a practically realistic number if long term reliability is desired.

I am talking about MECHANICAL power handling, this is more of a long term reliability metric for the suspension components operating within the specific enclosure. Usually, and this depends on the suspension design, it's accepted that the speaker not exceed Xmax by more than say 10%-20%, within the Xmax value being the linear portion of the drivers mechanical (and electro-mechanical) operation.

I looked at the power handling that is recommended by Eminence and it's even lower than I remembered... for a typical bass application WITH a steep 60Hz HPF, the driver is limited to 50 watts RMS mechanically, I might push this to 75 watts RMS with a 20% exceeding Xmax factor, but this clearly illustrates the challenges with this driver in particular, and the concept of mechanical power limitations in general. It also highlights why the nominal power values that so many folks (including many non-engineering based designers) assume is true isn't necessarily true in practice for this type of application.

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] (first cabinet example)

From discussions like this on TB, it's why I now rate speakers (published claims of power handling) I design based on MECHANICAL limits from 50Hz - 5kHz as this represents the bandwidth that most closely describes how the cabinets are used for BASS GUITAR applications. Of course this can be seen as a marketing disadvantage, but in the end it's a more truthful (in terms of meaningful details), or more accurate representation of what the speaker is capable of handling over a long (say 10, 20 or 30 year) service life.

This is a complicated issue, customers want a simple, single number answer to a much more complex mechanism. I hope this helps players understand WHY the numbers are not useful without knowing more about what the numbers mean and how they apply to their specific applications.
Click to expand...

Thanks, agedhorse for a most thorough explanation of what it is that I look at numbers wise vs what is important. I think the Eminence BP102s have a bit more xmax and a lower resonance frequency than the Delta 10Bs but sound wise they lack mids and clarity. i can always pair up that D210XLT cab that has the Deltas with an Eden D115XL for better lows , right? I also have a 2nd D210XLT that I am having the original Eden EC1060XLs reconed so that should be a best match speaker for the cab and I can run the 2 D210XLTs together.

I've never been one to crank the amp because someone said the speakers are 'rated" for it. I watch the cone travel and listen. I do typically run the WT800 Eden in bridged when running on a 410 or the pairings I mentioned above. But then I only set the gain at noon and and the main at 9 or 10 with EQ flat ( I may push the preamp a bit with an external bass pre pedal
 
#210
The tube does not appear to make any difference tonally to me. I replaced the original with a couple of other known good tubes and it really did not matter. The horn in the 4x10 blew a couple of times, but other than that just some 24 year old scratch pots.
 
#213
Bassmann1968 said:
It's because the tube sits in the impedance section of the preamp not the gain stage.
Click to expand...

I'm thinking that they call that stage a Cathode follower or something like that. No gain but trying to get that warm tubey sound. I suppose that's why I can run a bass pedal preamp to push that a bit and not really overdrive the actual gain stage much. It may enhance the tube harmonics or something for the Eden amps.

I believe SWR had something similar for their bass amps.

My gut feel is that the cathode follower in the Eden is what I hear tone wise and why I enjoy the amps so much...Smooth, buttery, rich.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Rip Van Dan
#214
old_thumper said:
I'm thinking that they call that stage a Cathode follower or something like that. No gain but trying to get that warm tubey sound. I suppose that's why I can run a bass pedal preamp to push that a bit and not really overdrive the actual gain stage much. It may enhance the tube harmonics or something for the Eden amps.

I believe SWR had something similar for their bass amps.

My gut feel is that the cathode follower in the Eden is what I hear tone wise and why I enjoy the amps so much...Smooth, buttery, rich.
Click to expand...
I have both types, Eden amps with the tube and those without the tube. My Eden Nemesis RS400 has a 100% FET preamp and it definitely sounds more sterile than my Eden WT500/800 with the hybrid preamp. Yes that 12ax7 tube in the impedance section is what gives it that warmth. I also have a newer Eden Class D amp the TN-226. It has the same warmth as my hybrid but it uses a "golden ear chip" to emulate that as well as do a couple of other things. If you see an Eden amp with the "hybrid" moniker on it, you can expect that warm sound. Their latest class D amps also have that warm sound.
 
#216
agedhorse said:
Perhaps that's just a bit on the harsh side eh?
Click to expand...

I deleted that post as I was afraid it might be interpreted as political and earn me another ban, when really it was just stating the sad truth of reality.

To OP:

Sorry to hear so.

Sadly that's pretty much how most big business co-operations chose to run their companies.

In the end unfortunately all that matters to them is how much money they can earn, regardless of anything else.

That you doing a favor to them, essentially doing customer service work, for all these years for free meaning absolutely nothing to them is just despicably shameless.
 
Last edited:
#217
agedhorse said:
Maybe, it depends...
Click to expand...


Agedhorse,

Looking for a few more recommendations now based on your wisdom.

Going on the mechanical limitations of a speaker in a given cab as the "better" way to do things, I am going to unbridge my Eden WT800 and run 2 300 channels into a 2 cab mix - a D210XLT ( the one with the Eminence Delta 10Bs, for now until I get the Eden speakers reconed for it) and a D115XL. Eden ratings are 350W for the D210XLT. The D115XL is rated 400W. As I understand, you are saying that I should use 40 to 50% rated power as a max? So, 300W per cab should be reasonably close?

In the same vein, I have a Eden D410XLT rated at 700W and a Eden D410XST rated at 1000W. These both have the correct Eden drivers for the cabs and should be matched to the cab. What are your suggested power limits for these cabs?

I do appreciate your input and guidance. I don't have anything that Mesa Boogie but those are amazing guitar amps. I've only read about the Mesa tube bass head and have never seen one in person. All beautiful pieces of engineering. I'd even like to hear some stories of Mesa Boogie and what you have been involved with there. When I was younger, I attempted to pursue a EE degree but found I didn't really enjoy Calculus THAT much and later swtiched majors to Computer Science. Through the years I as was an electronics tech for about 15 years, so your explanations don't go entirely over my head and it has all been useful and educational.

Thanks again.
 
#220
old_thumper said:
Agedhorse,

Looking for a few more recommendations now based on your wisdom.

Going on the mechanical limitations of a speaker in a given cab as the "better" way to do things, I am going to unbridge my Eden WT800 and run 2 300 channels into a 2 cab mix - a D210XLT ( the one with the Eminence Delta 10Bs, for now until I get the Eden speakers reconed for it) and a D115XL. Eden ratings are 350W for the D210XLT. The D115XL is rated 400W. As I understand, you are saying that I should use 40 to 50% rated power as a max? So, 300W per cab should be reasonably close?

In the same vein, I have a Eden D410XLT rated at 700W and a Eden D410XST rated at 1000W. These both have the correct Eden drivers for the cabs and should be matched to the cab. What are your suggested power limits for these cabs?

I do appreciate your input and guidance. I don't have anything that Mesa Boogie but those are amazing guitar amps. I've only read about the Mesa tube bass head and have never seen one in person. All beautiful pieces of engineering. I'd even like to hear some stories of Mesa Boogie and what you have been involved with there. When I was younger, I attempted to pursue a EE degree but found I didn't really enjoy Calculus THAT much and later swtiched majors to Computer Science. Through the years I as was an electronics tech for about 15 years, so your explanations don't go entirely over my head and it has all been useful and educational.

Thanks again.
Click to expand...
Generally, it’s safe without further data to assume that the rated power is based on thermal limits over a 2 hour time span. This would generally apply to the Delta series, but each driver (within the context of the specific cabinet) has their own boundaries.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back