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Eden Forum Disappears

Agedhorse,

Looking for a few more recommendations now based on your wisdom.

Going on the mechanical limitations of a speaker in a given cab as the "better" way to do things, I am going to unbridge my Eden WT800 and run 2 300 channels into a 2 cab mix - a D210XLT ( the one with the Eminence Delta 10Bs, for now until I get the Eden speakers reconed for it) and a D115XL. Eden ratings are 350W for the D210XLT. The D115XL is rated 400W. As I understand, you are saying that I should use 40 to 50% rated power as a max? So, 300W per cab should be reasonably close?

In the same vein, I have a Eden D410XLT rated at 700W and a Eden D410XST rated at 1000W. These both have the correct Eden drivers for the cabs and should be matched to the cab. What are your suggested power limits for these cabs?

I do appreciate your input and guidance. I don't have anything that Mesa Boogie but those are amazing guitar amps. I've only read about the Mesa tube bass head and have never seen one in person. All beautiful pieces of engineering. I'd even like to hear some stories of Mesa Boogie and what you have been involved with there. When I was younger, I attempted to pursue a EE degree but found I didn't really enjoy Calculus THAT much and later swtiched majors to Computer Science. Through the years I as was an electronics tech for about 15 years, so your explanations don't go entirely over my head and it has all been useful and educational.

Thanks again.
Regarding running your WT800 in dual-mono mode (cabs plugged into separate power channels), one of the really cool things about the WT800 (WT500 and WT600 too) is that balance knob on the front. It allows you to adjust the mix of power that you send to those two cabs. When I used to run my acoustic B410 with my GK115bpx with a single powerblock amp I used to have to drop the Bass EQ quite a bit to tame the boomy muddy sound it made. When I got my WT500/800 I plugged one cabinet into each side and then set the balance knob over toward the 410 side. That allowed me to tame the boominess of that GK cab while still keeping the Bass EQ flat, which the 410 really needed.

Now your D115XLT is a night and day clearer cab than that GK115bpx so you don't need to worry about it being boomy or muddy, but I'd suggest you play around with that balance knob a little bit to see which mix of 210 + 115 sound you like best. I used to call that knob my "magic knob" because it worked magic on an otherwise not-so-good match of cabs.
 
Agedhorse,

Looking for a few more recommendations now based on your wisdom.

Going on the mechanical limitations of a speaker in a given cab as the "better" way to do things, I am going to unbridge my Eden WT800 and run 2 300 channels into a 2 cab mix - a D210XLT ( the one with the Eminence Delta 10Bs, for now until I get the Eden speakers reconed for it) and a D115XL. Eden ratings are 350W for the D210XLT. The D115XL is rated 400W. As I understand, you are saying that I should use 40 to 50% rated power as a max? So, 300W per cab should be reasonably close?

In the same vein, I have a Eden D410XLT rated at 700W and a Eden D410XST rated at 1000W. These both have the correct Eden drivers for the cabs and should be matched to the cab. What are your suggested power limits for these cabs?

I do appreciate your input and guidance. I don't have anything that Mesa Boogie but those are amazing guitar amps. I've only read about the Mesa tube bass head and have never seen one in person. All beautiful pieces of engineering. I'd even like to hear some stories of Mesa Boogie and what you have been involved with there. When I was younger, I attempted to pursue a EE degree but found I didn't really enjoy Calculus THAT much and later swtiched majors to Computer Science. Through the years I as was an electronics tech for about 15 years, so your explanations don't go entirely over my head and it has all been useful and educational.

Thanks again.
Regarding the power handling ratings on the Eden cabs with OEM speakers in them, presume they are as rated. David used to pooh-pooh people who gave a thermal power-handling rating that was higher than the mechanical power-handling capability of the speaker, saying if the speakers can't handle the mechanics of movement from that amount of power, then their power handling rating isn't accurate is it?

I would have no fear at all about running your WT800 bridged at 800-watts (880-watts for later models) into either your D410XLT or your D410XST. That's been done with the D410XLT for at least 25-years and the XST has higher power handling yet. You control the amount of power that goes to the speakers by the level you set on the Master. The biggest problem you will probably encounter is that they are too loud for where you are playing.

If you are worried about it because you have cranked it up higher than I can imagine, just use your ears to listen to what you are playing. Both of those cabs with that amp produce a very clear sound even at Festival levels. If you hear any farting sounds coming out of your speakers, drop you bass EQ a couple of notches first. If that doesn't clear it up then you MUST drop the master until that sound stops. Otherwise you will damage your speakers.

But that combination (WT800+D410XLT) has been used not only in a plethora of gigs, but all kinds of concerts since the 90's. And you still find used examples with the banana plug jacks from back in that era that work perfectly well with their original speakers. They were designed for great sound (Hi-Fi sound for the Low-End) and durability before cab weight became a "thing".
 
Didn’t the 210 in question have Delta 10’s? I know the mechanical limits on those drivers are much less than the published thermal ratings and Eminence’s recommendations include this caution.
 
Regarding running your WT800 in dual-mono mode (cabs plugged into separate power channels), one of the really cool things about the WT800 (WT500 and WT600 too) is that balance knob on the front. It allows you to adjust the mix of power that you send to those two cabs. When I used to run my acoustic B410 with my GK115bpx with a single powerblock amp I used to have to drop the Bass EQ quite a bit to tame the boomy muddy sound it made. When I got my WT500/800 I plugged one cabinet into each side and then set the balance knob over toward the 410 side. That allowed me to tame the boominess of that GK cab while still keeping the Bass EQ flat, which the 410 really needed.

Now your D115XLT is a night and day clearer cab than that GK115bpx so you don't need to worry about it being boomy or muddy, but I'd suggest you play around with that balance knob a little bit to see which mix of 210 + 115 sound you like best. I used to call that knob my "magic knob" because it worked magic on an otherwise not-so-good match of cabs.


Sounds like a good idea for balancing the 2 cabs ( D210XLT & the D115XL - no tweeter ). I really do like the touch of old school that 15 gets. The D210XLT with the Delta 10 is what's functional now, so that's the pairing for now. I have the recone kits for the Eden EC1060XL drivers in a 2nd D210XLT so once I get that to the tech for reconing, that cab with the Edens will be what I use and the D210XLT with the Delta 10Bs will be a spare.

I do typically use the WT800 bridged in the the D410XLT and, yes, it sounds fabulous.

I'm still working on restoring the D410XST. I got all the rodent trash out of it and then used a cream spray paint spray over all the rodent stains and then I have re-insulated the cab. The crossover is missing the bulb fuse and one of the fuse clips is broke off, so once I get that fixed, I will be loading the drivers back and give it a run down.

It's bad habit of mine finding "gems" in the rough and bringing them back to life.

I do have a question though. Is it still possible to get the David Eden cabinet label that's in the upper left corner of those cabs? If not, I'll probably remove a label from the Delta 10B D210XLT and put it on the D410XST.
 
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Didn’t the 210 in question have Delta 10’s? I know the mechanical limits on those drivers are much less than the published thermal ratings and Eminence’s recommendations include this caution.


Yes. One of my D210XLTs has the Delta 10Bs in it. part of the reason I was asking about putting the WT800 amp in 2 channel mode and that would limit max power per channel to 300W. I believe you said that the mechanical limits of the Delta 10B was about 150W per speaker.

Once I get a pair of Eden EC1060XL speakers reconed, then I will park the cab with the Delta 10Bs as a spare and roll with the D210XLT that actually has Eden speakers in it.

I want to follow your recommendations because I've see quite a few Eden cabs where the Eden speakers were overdriven and the cones creased. I want to avoid that as much as possible.
 
Yes, 150 watts per driver sounds reasonable.

Older Eden drivers used a cone edge profile that was vulnerable to mechanical damage. Other manufacturers also used this profile and faced the same challenges when they claimed greater power handling based on thermal limits. The smaller the driver diameter, the more vulnerable the cone edge becomes. Changing the profile greatly improved this issue for all manufacturers. The failure was typically at the point where the surround which has a flat edge bonded with the cone’s flat edge transitions to the cone flare. Now, many cones remain tapered and the transition is done within the surround, or the edge is reinforced in another way.
 
Sounds like a good idea for balancing the 2 cabs ( D210XLT & the D115XL - no tweeter ). I really do like the touch of old school that 15 gets. The D210XLT with the Delta 10 is what's functional now, so that's the pairing for now. I have the recone kits for the Eden EC1060XL drivers in a 2nd D210XLT so once I get that to the tech for reconing, that cab with the Edens will be what I use and the D210XLT with the Delta 10Bs will be a spare.

I do typically use the WT800 bridged in the the D410XLT and, yes, it sounds fabulous.

I'm still working on restoring the D410XST. I got all the rodent trash out of it and then used a cream spray paint spray over all the rodent stains and then I have re-insulated the cab. The crossover is missing the bulb fuse and one of the fuse clips is broke off, so once I get that fixed, I will be loading the drivers back and give it a run down.

It's bad habit of mine finding "gems" in the rough and bringing them back to life.

I do have a question though. Is it still possible to get the David Eden cabinet label that's in the upper left corner of those cabs? If not, I'll probably remove a label from the Delta 10B D210XLT and put it on the D410XST.
You can get still get an Eden D-Series label from Eden, but the David Eden labels all disappeared when David left in 2009.
 
Didn’t the 210 in question have Delta 10’s? I know the mechanical limits on those drivers are much less than the published thermal ratings and Eminence’s recommendations include this caution.
Yes @agedhorse, you are right. I thought he was talking about one with the original speakers in it, not the Delta 10's. Thanks!
 
Again for full disclosure, I am a DNA Endorser (got a warning from TB to be sure to point that out when I give glowing reports on DNA gear). But I am not embellishing my opinions at all. I bought my first DNA gear in 2015 and became an endorser last year.

The best way to look at the DNA stuff is that it's the next step up from the XST's for the cabs and night and day better than the WTX class D amps that David designed at Eden. After playing through my two Eden EX112 cabs and then playing through my DNS-210 cab, the difference in clarity made it sound like I had just pulled a blanket off of my cabs. And for the lower end of Eden cabs, those EX112's have a great sound - not quite as good as the D112XST's but they are about $600 less than the D-series cabs and there's certainly not $600 worth of difference in the sound.

And don't misunderstand me, I'm not down grading the Eden cabs at all, it's just that David's latest designs are a noticeable step up from what he did at Eden. He designed new long throw speakers that still have excellent transients and new textured porting systems for his cabs that channel air through a lot faster than normal round and shelf ports allowing him to higher power handling, very sensitive cabs with a very tight bottom end and a very full sound across the frequency spectrum. He's made some amazing cabs.

The one thing I am a little leery about though is his simplified EQ section on his DNA amps. But he used it first on his Eden WT330,390, and 405 amps and they were very well received. I first became fascinated with using semi-parametric controls to choose a center frequency that I want to adjust and then cut or boost it as needed. By 2010, when I got my WT500/800 that had three of these controls, I was addicted. The goofy thing is although that EQ system is possibly the most musical and versitale EQ system made, I usually run it flat with just a little boost in the low-mids at 250 Hz. I've also boost the low-mids at 500Hz when using my WTDI because the mid can be toggled between either 500Hz or 2KHz. Did some recording at a professional studio with that 500Hz low-mid boost and it did sound great. I have used semi-parametric EQ to dial in a few troublesome rooms over the years too. It's just so darn versatile, I'm not sure I want to give that up!

For his DNA amps, the DNA-800 and the DNA-1350, he chose some good frequency centers. The bass is centered a 35Hz, the low-mid at 500Hz, the high-mid at 2KHZ, and the treble is a shelving control for everything above 2KHz. So that's pretty much dead on with what my WTDI does and if that's the case, I think I will be happy. I had hoped to have a DNA-800 by March or April of 2020 (again, using only gig money to buy it) but Covid-19 shut that right down. So I don't have one yet. If I don't like it, I can always carry my heavier WT500/800 around. The only thing I don't like about that big amp is its weight at about 36-lbs. in its rack. I'd love to have an 800-watt amp weighing under 5-lbs that I can carry in a shoulder bag and still have it sound like my Eden amp, and I think I can do that.

I truly believe that the DNA cabs are the very best cabs available right now. I've played through a lot of cabs including MarkBass, Mesa, GK, acoustic, Ampeg, etc. and you can just here everything better with these DNA cabs. If you play bass chords, you will very distinctly hear all three notes regardless if the are in low or high registers. It takes very little power to get them to gig levels and they are not only clear but very LOUD cabs. My DNS410 has a max SPL of 137db and my DNS-210 is just slightly behind it at 134db. My 800-watt amp can drive my DNS-210 to its maximum SPL, but again, you don't want to be anywhere near it at those levels. I suspect the DNA amps are as good as it gets too when comparing class D amps. Features-wise they cover all the basses and they sound great with all the high quality videos I've seen...really want a DNA-800! It's about half the cost of the DNA-1350 and easily more than I need.

OK....that's enough "glowing" for now.
I notice you are an Eden guy! I have a WT405 and WT800c. Love both of them. I’m trying to find a dedicated schematic for the 405. Marshall is absolutely no help! I just wondered if you would know where to find. My repair guy is at a loss. Hope you can help!
Thanks
Laurence
 
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I notice you are an Eden guy! I have a WT405 and WT800c. Love both of them. I’m trying to find a dedicated schematic for the 405. Marshall is absolutely no help! I just wondered if you would know where to find. My repair guy is at a loss. Hope you can help!
Thanks
Laurence

Hey Lawrence, I’m not Rip Van Dan, but I think I have the schematic in my file stash. Send me a PM and I should be able to send it to you.

-Gerry
 
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I notice you are an Eden guy! I have a WT405 and WT800c. Love both of them. I’m trying to find a dedicated schematic for the 405. Marshall is absolutely no help! I just wondered if you would know where to find. My repair guy is at a loss. Hope you can help!
Thanks
Laurence
Looks like Gerry - @gerryjazzman - is taking care of you, which is good because I don't have any schematics...OK... I have one that covers the WT500, WT600, and WT800 (A version). When Marshall bought Eden they put the Kibosh on sending out schematics. Their take on it is that sending a schematic to an individual will lead to lots of repairs by garage-type amateurs who don't necessarily know what they are doing. And when those amps get sold because they can't seem to get them working right, Eden will start getting a reputation for not being reliable. So they want to make sure that only Eden authorized techs have copies of them.

That actually is a valid concern because there are still some very old Eden amps out there that are still workhorses doing their jobs. My WT500/800 is one of them. It was made in 1999, so it's 22-years old now and it works and sounds great. And yes, I did take it into a repair shop once after it fell about 3½-feet onto the concrete. It just loosened up the huge toroidal transformer and a couple of worn transistors had to be replaced. Still going strong.

I do have a friend who has a lot of those schematics, but don't can't really give you his name without his approval and looks like Gerry's got you covered.
 
Looks like Gerry - @gerryjazzman - is taking care of you, which is good because I don't have any schematics...OK... I have one that covers the WT500, WT600, and WT800 (A version). When Marshall bought Eden they put the Kibosh on sending out schematics. Their take on it is that sending a schematic to an individual will lead to lots of repairs by garage-type amateurs who don't necessarily know what they are doing. And when those amps get sold because they can't seem to get them working right, Eden will start getting a reputation for not being reliable. So they want to make sure that only Eden authorized techs have copies of them.

That actually is a valid concern because there are still some very old Eden amps out there that are still workhorses doing their jobs. My WT500/800 is one of them. It was made in 1999, so it's 22-years old now and it works and sounds great. And yes, I did take it into a repair shop once after it fell about 3½-feet onto the concrete. It just loosened up the huge toroidal transformer and a couple of worn transistors had to be replaced. Still going strong.

I do have a friend who has a lot of those schematics, but don't can't really give you his name without his approval and looks like Gerry's got you covered.

I can't remember when I got these schematics. It's been some years, but I think I just asked Eden customer service at one point. I wanted a schematic for my WT300 since I wanted to add a push pull pot for the enhance control to defeat the compressor, like the WT400 has. They also sent me the push pull pot. I guess I had asked for some other schematics too since I have the WT405 as well as the WT500 / 600 / 700.
 
I can't remember when I got these schematics. It's been some years, but I think I just asked Eden customer service at one point. I wanted a schematic for my WT300 since I wanted to add a push pull pot for the enhance control to defeat the compressor, like the WT400 has. They also sent me the push pull pot. I guess I had asked for some other schematics too since I have the WT405 as well as the WT500 / 600 / 700.
Yeah. They weren't real stingy with them back in the mid-2000's when I started participating on the Eden forum. But when USM sold them to Marshall, that all came to a screeching halt. I presume you meant WT500/600/800, since there was no WT700. There was a WTB700 that had originally been the Eden Nemesis RS700, but it was a single powerblock amp, not a dual powerblock amp.

That RS700 started life as the RS-700 (700-watts rms into 2 ohms), then had some cosmetic changes and became the EN-700 (EN for Eden Nemesis), and finally left behind its Nemesis moniker and with more cosmetic changes became the WTB-700 (WTB for WT Black). All the WTB's were black instead of gold like the WT's. All three of those amps were identical inside; it was just the cosmetics that changed.

But you're right, it wasn't uncommon for someone to come onto the forum looking for a schematic and Eden would send one to them. They even had some schematics for the various upgrades they offered for some of their amps.
 
Looks like Gerry - @gerryjazzman - is taking care of you, which is good because I don't have any schematics...OK... I have one that covers the WT500, WT600, and WT800 (A version). When Marshall bought Eden they put the Kibosh on sending out schematics. Their take on it is that sending a schematic to an individual will lead to lots of repairs by garage-type amateurs who don't necessarily know what they are doing. And when those amps get sold because they can't seem to get them working right, Eden will start getting a reputation for not being reliable. So they want to make sure that only Eden authorized techs have copies of them.

That actually is a valid concern because there are still some very old Eden amps out there that are still workhorses doing their jobs. My WT500/800 is one of them. It was made in 1999, so it's 22-years old now and it works and sounds great. And yes, I did take it into a repair shop once after it fell about 3½-feet onto the concrete. It just loosened up the huge toroidal transformer and a couple of worn transistors had to be replaced. Still going strong.

I do have a friend who has a lot of those schematics, but don't can't really give you his name without his approval and looks like Gerry's got you covered.
 
Yeah. They weren't real stingy with them back in the mid-2000's when I started participating on the Eden forum. But when USM sold them to Marshall, that all came to a screeching halt. I presume you meant WT500/600/800, since there was no WT700. There was a WTB700 that had originally been the Eden Nemesis RS700, but it was a single powerblock amp, not a dual powerblock amp.

That RS700 started life as the RS-700 (700-watts rms into 2 ohms), then had some cosmetic changes and became the EN-700 (EN for Eden Nemesis), and finally left behind its Nemesis moniker and with more cosmetic changes became the WTB-700 (WTB for WT Black). All the WTB's were black instead of gold like the WT's. All three of those amps were identical inside; it was just the cosmetics that changed.

But you're right, it wasn't uncommon for someone to come onto the forum looking for a schematic and Eden would send one to them. They even had some schematics for the various upgrades they offered for some of their amps.

Oops, yeah WT800. Fat fingered again. :spit:
 
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