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Everyone has to be rich now??

Here in Lex, ky, we're having a battle with the school board raising taxes almost yearly. They are at odds with our state AG who says the latest raise was illegally done. We have no kids and have paid our fair share for others kids to get an education. Enough is enough imo.... Tax those who's kids use public education more than those who don't, pretty simple
Do those of us who paid for public education also get to reap the economic benefits of an educated populace? Make my day. We should be taxing the people who don't have kids.

But of course I'm being sarcastic. That would be a terrible idea.

Everything the government provides for free is paid for out of the surplus produced by an educated workforce. What's left over still makes us the richest country in the world, at least in dollar terms.

Free public education is the bargain of the millennium. It pays for itself over and over again by providing an educated community and workforce. Show me a prosperous country that doesn't generously fund public education.

Also, each of us pays for goodies that benefit someone else. That's civilization.
 
Do you think someone could get the equivalent of an English lit degree with a good reading list, some commentaries, the internet and a library these days? Would it require a multi thousand dollar degree program?
Yes, it would; what you are leaving out is guidance from those experienced with the subject. Without that, how are you to know whether the reading list is "good" or the commentaries are reliable? Mentors need to get you from crawling to toddling to walking confidently in the profession. The degree is essential if you hope to have a teaching career at any level.

What you are suggesting in your first question does have merit if you hope to grow in your profession after your schooling ends. You have to self-educate; you have to become an independent self-directed learner. This is one of many bones I have to pick with higher education (and secondary as well): librarians are not given the time and opportunities to teach students how to achieve this self-directedness. The tools and skills. That takes at least a semester-long credit course to cover everything. The most that most of us get is a sixty- to ninety-minute one-shot lecture to show students how to fulfill an assignment. Not nearly enough.
 
Houses could be smaller because us kids weren`t allowed to be in them during daylight hours. Back in the 70`s we had to make our own fun by playing outside. Mom & Dad didn`t tolerate their kids being inside when it was sunny out.
I may be way off here, but it appears no one wants to work for what it took most parents their entire working years to accumulate. We live in a society that begs instant gratification.
In the fifties, kids could play out until dark, which in the summer was nine pm. No one worried about us. A gaggle of us could band together to go trick-or-treating without an adult guardian along. In the summer we could walk the better part of a mile -- alone -- to play ball at the backstops on the school grounds.

I doubt any of those things could happen today, and they might not even be allowed.
 
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I doubt any of those things could happen today, and they might not even be allowed.
That's due to a more frightened society than any real dangers. NYC is the safest city over 1,000,000 and much much safer than it was in the 70s/80s/90s, yet the parents of today's kids -- who weren't circumscribed from being out, or unsupervised -- don't allow the same independence for their own kids in a much safer city.

There's a nonprofit group that came up a few years ago to try to reverse the craziness (like cops arresting a parent for letting the 12 year old go to the corner market by himself).

 
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Here in Lex, ky, we're having a battle with the school board raising taxes almost yearly. They are at odds with our state AG who says the latest raise was illegally done. We have no kids and have paid our fair share for others kids to get an education. Enough is enough imo.... Tax those who's kids use public education more than those who don't, pretty simple
Sorry, but 1.2% for a property tax rate is not that high. That and I would not consider AG Russell Coleman an honest broker either.

It's called investing in the future of the community.
 
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Absolutely dead-on accurate and very well stated. I was about to type almost exactly the same thing, and I had alluded to these concepts in my earlier digitally-diarrhetic post. What folks consider to be "minimum requirements" for a decent life have changed drastically.

Thank you

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With all this infrastructure and overhead, I barely see how this man keeps himself afloat.
 
Here in Lex, ky, we're having a battle with the school board raising taxes almost yearly. They are at odds with our state AG who says the latest raise was illegally done. We have no kids and have paid our fair share for others kids to get an education. Enough is enough imo.... Tax those who's kids use public education more than those who don't, pretty simple
Except that those who don't have kids benefit from whatever good the educated kids bring to the table, just like the people with kids. Common good, and all that.
 
Exactly a response from someone who doesn't know the details.....Yes i'm a team player, no i'm not for yearly tax raises. Yes i have no kids and am tired of yearly raises....
Shouldn't you be taking these grievances to your city council and school board meetings? If things are going to change, that's the place to start.
 
I am jealous of Georgia and HOPE. My state is backwards in many ways. We are one of 2 states that does not have a state lottery. 2! And the only one east of the Mississippi. It is ridiculous. State politicians are on the take to keep it from ever happening. A lottery is a tax on the willing and that is the best kind of tax there can ever be. Using these dollars to help take care of college costs is a benefit to everyone. If there really is always someone else to blame, I am blaming the government of my state for being backwards and holding us back. :cool:
Hear! Hear! Now I know where you live.
 
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Although you said that you would no longer participate in the discussion, I am happy to hear a further description as to why my comparison was lame to you. :thumbsup:
Just over the top is all. I would never complain about paying for fire service, ever. Thinking someone who complains about school tax would equally think having fire department because they haven't had a fire is too much is just wrong and not me. The old apple to orange...
 
Sorry, but 1.2% for a property tax rate is not that high. That and I would not consider AG Russell Coleman an honest broker either.

It's called investing in the future of the community.
For which I have no issue. Our PVA has overvalued much private property, seemingly by 1/3 over last 3 years. Thus higher taxes than probably should have. The school board has always done property tax hikes, this week they snuck in a never done before occupational tax on top of property tax for schools. There were a couple of rules broken in how they went about it, thus my frustration especially the earlier mention of any complaining means you don't want to participate in society... hyperbole at it's best lol
 
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Several comments related to “wealth.”

First, the Joule is the fundamental economic unit; not the dollar.

Short story: we have had the technical capability to harvest essentially infinite Joules for more than 40 years. Which would make “wealth” to not be a zero sum resource. We don’t choose to do that essentially because we don’t get along with each other on this little planet. Unsurprising, since we have only had a grasp of technology for about 0.2% of our existence, the preceding 99.8% being predicated on truly apparent zero sum resources.

Our truly most valuable assets are our young minds. Every one of them; independent of paint job or societal position. Nature could care less where a given human comes from. The genetic variations spin like immensely complex Las Vegas slot machines with every new life. Each is valuable for no other reason than they will take care of you some day. So, it should behoove us to invest in this resource, just like a rising stock.

Children in disadvantaged communities are at greater risk for loss to society, lacking necessary home support. It is a challenging situation. How to create opportunities for intellectual development of youngsters lacking proper support has no easy answers. Yet, abandonment of this set of minds is at our own expense.

Our economic prosperity runs generally in multi-decade cycles, there having been about 5 of them since the Civil War. They all essentially follow the same progression. First, some technical breakthrough occurs in R&D labs. Nothing happens, because the critical second step is the combination of building production infrastructure (expensive), and training an informed workforce and supply chain; which takes about 10 years minimum. We have only done this second step in response to war. That’s the history. It is an intriguing question as to whether we could do it without the urgency of war. Anyhow, the third step is when publically traded companies turn the infrastructure and trained supply chain towards consumer markets.

The most recent example is our (broad sense) semiconductor market, which was initiated at Bell Labs ca 1947, pressed into dedicated development in the put the man on the moon project in 1961, and created an affluence around 1996 (avoiding the political terminology).

We have yet to initiate a next economic platform, though we have given some away, such as the flat panel industry. Until we initiate another major productivity infrastructure expansion and start training a workforce, the multi-decade clock sits waiting to count down to better times. There are lots of new technical concepts. Just no purposeful critical investment. Yet. So, still 20+ years and counting; and will remain so.

For the time being, we are left to squabble over a falsely perceived sense of zero sum resources. Sad, really.
 
Ah yes, rule ONE of textbook selection: Thou shalt select a new textbook for thy classes every year. In all things, a textbook written by thyself or one of thy tenured colleagues shall be given preference. If no new textbook is available, a new edition will suffice.

It always seemed to us impecunious undergraduates that there was a cabal dedicated to making our used books worthless, and to making next year's students buy new ones instead of used ones.

That said, the university bookstore DID carry a lot of non-textbook titles that were not likely to be found at the local ordinary bookstore.

I know a lot of college professors, and I've taken more than my fair share of classes.

The majority of professors are aware of the textbook issues, and are as aghast about it as anybody. Even when I was in school 40 years ago, people used terms such as "cartel." At the K-12 level, it's worse: A handful of companies own the production of textbooks, online learning systems, testing, and student surveillance. My concern is not just the economic nature of a cartel, but also their control over information, and collaboration with agencies that govern textbook selection in entire states.

Professors have always fought back when they could. For English, paperback copies of the classics could be had for pennies. One of my college professors required no textbook, but gave away copies of his textbook-quality lecture notes. The only thing was, the equations weren't typeset, but written by hand. Big deal. Today, there's an "open source" textbook movement. Two of my friends publish a free computer science textbook online, and it's quite well regarded. When I decided I needed a refresher on statistical mechanics after 30+ years, I found a free textbook, that is of the highest quality.

My university actually has an award for professors who save the students money on textbooks. The problem with it for me is that I went as much as possible to open-source material years ago so I don't have any "savings" to show; most of my courses don't require any textbook purchase at all.
 
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Yes, and no. They could get aspects of it.

A person with such a plan could become widely read and well-informed about the literature they study, yes. But there are important aspects of higher education they would miss.

For one thing, there's an "invisible" aspect to the proposition; who selects the reading list? Who selects the commentaries? What's the basis for selection? I often notice this about non-traditional students, who are self-educated and then arrived in a college class later in life. They often have quite a lot of existing knowledge, and also a lot of motivation and enthusiasm, all of which are very positive and admirable things. But there's also a complete black hole about some basic thing that just wasn't on their radar, or they might have a rather bizarre attachment to some fringe notion they ran across that distorts their ability to follow more fundamental aspects of the field (history, in my case).

Another thing is that people who set out to do this kind of thing often don't follow through, and there's a reason why not. On any topic of any complexity, there is already likely to be an ongoing conversation among experts in the field - often a debate - about it. Because that conversation has been ongoing for some time at a high level of sophistication, it can be very difficult for a newcomer to follow what's going on (like two die-hard American football fans arguing who the greatest quarterback was, in the presence of a foreigner who has never even seen an American football game). In the absence of a guide to orient you, getting up to speed with the conversation so that you can say you're actually informed about the state of the field takes a LOT more time and effort, and is often frustrating.

A third thing is that a traditional college education creates (or should) a learning community and cross-pollination. A broad and varied curriculum means your English major isn't only taking English classes, but also psychology or astronomy or whatever. Something they learned in astronomy class can prompt insights when reading Shakespeare that they would never have thought of otherwise. Not only that, but hopefully they have other students as friends and there's a certain amount of dining-hall conversation. I'm not going to be naive and assume students are all talking about their classes over lunch, but I will say an AWFUL lot of what I learned in college was not in the classroom but at a dining hall table with philosophy or physics or engineering majors, who were coming to the conversation with ideas and methods they had picked up in THEIR array of classes. Someone studying solo with a stack of books and the internet won't get that.

The fourth thing is something I tell my students all the time, particularly in general education classes where some are tempted to think it's "irrelevant." There are always two things you're learning in any class; the content of the class, AND the skills you need in order to master that content. It's often the skills that are more valuable in life, in a direct sense. For instance, at my institution, we build general education around four "habits of mind." These are qualities that any higher educational experience ought to cultivate, but we built the program to be more explicit about it. The Habits are Purposeful Communication, Problem Solving, Integrated Perspective and Self-Directed Learning. So, your prospective self-educating person with the stack of books is likely to develop very strong Self-Directed Learning habits, since the whole program is self-directed. But they may have little opportunity to translate the information they're taking in into communication skills, written or oral, from needing how to communicate with others about that content in a disciplined and sophisticated way. They may, as I suggested above, have less exposure to the Integrated Perspective habit. And so on.

Don't get me wrong; personal initiative to learn and educate oneself is an amazing and wonderful thing. I wish more of my students had it, and more people in society at large. People SHOULD be always seeking to learn and develop their understanding more. But for most people, it's somewhere in the difficult-to-impossible range for that kind of undertaking to accomplish what a university experience does.



As far as the funding issue goes, this is not mysterious hidden information. The BIG report on it all (on a state-by-state basis) is here. If you look at p. 43 of the report linked, Georgia is somewhat above average in its appropriations for public higher ed: 14th out of the 50 states + DC. Looks to be about $12k or $13k per FTE (Full-Time Equivalent student). By the way, that chart shows you what I'm talking about for my own state, NH: dead last, at $4629/FTE.

As far as Georgia Tech goes, its financials are [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. For 2022, state appropriations were 16% of their revenue (compare that to the 9% I mentioned for my own school, Plymouth State. My colleagues would give a kidney for our state to support 16% of our budget). There's also a big category (38%) of "sponsored operations," which mostly means grants, and the grant revenue will include federal and state grants as well as private foundations and donors. The difference is that appropriations are just funds the state sends to operate the school; grants are awarded for specific periods of time, to achieve specific tasks (things like research, etc.), so while they do keep the school solvent, they're more tied to specific activities or outcomes. (By the way, before I noticed you were talking about GA Tech, I looked at U of Georgia, which is strikingly different in its revenue structure; 28% from the state and only 20% in grants, unless I'm misreading their statement. For whatever that's worth).

One thing that I would hypothesize about all this is a certain cultural component - specifically, athletics. I'm not sure that GA and NH are actually all that different in their political mix (which I won't go into, obviously), though they're very different in size and history and demographics and all. But Georgia schools have powerhouse athletic programs that rev up enormous enthusiasm and loyalty. NH schools just can't compete on that level (who knows or cares whom UNH has a sports rivalry with?). I suspect that doesn't just translate into direct revenue to the school (I think I've heard those championship programs run at a net financial loss). It probably also means that there's a lot more willingness to support those schools publicly, or conversely a lot more hesitation to be the one to propose cutting their support.
I think yes and no is a legit answer to the degree question. As far as the invisible, all those who's doing it questions apply at the college level. Another quote from Larry Burkett: "Bob Vila is not building your house". He said that in setting expectaions for prospective home buyers. It applies to college as well. My professor that I'm paying to teach me may be the best in the system or the worst. I haven't looked but I imagine I could get reading lists off the internet posted by top teir programs I could never attend. I could join a local book club for discussions or a facebook group. I could listen to recorded lectures on the internet from the best instructors in the world. I could submit my essays to AI for grading, which I'm pretty sure a lot of profs are already doing, along with making AI generated assignments. Like bass cabs, there are always trade offs. Based on some of what I'm seeing at some of the most prestigous institutes of higher learning I'm not sure the college experience is necessarily producing people with a head in reality. Also, we say "college education" as if it's all the same. My school experience sounds very different from yours.

I looked at your links, breifly, as I'm not here to engage in an elaborate study of education funding, though it is interesting. I wouldn't say it's demystified. In general, the bigger the pot of money, the greater the mystery. You took it from 2/3 to 16% based on one chart.
This chart puts state higher ed funding at 73%:

ga funding a.JPG


Still a mystery to me, and the answer may be easy to find, is how much of the tuition category is actually paid by the state through scholarships.

Somebody mentioned being jealous of GA and HOPE and the lottery. Sure, it's great when you get the money. But a full 2/3's of the money collected by the lottery does not go to education. A tax on the williing could be one way to put it, but when they were putting it up for a vote way back when I voted against it. Gambling was illegal in GA and if it was illegal for everyone in the state it shouldn't be legal for the state. I referred to it as a tax on the poor so middle class kids could go to college. That may not be true either. But when I go in a gas station and see who's buying tickets, they don't look like doctors, lawyers and CEO's. Maybe they give at the office. The colleges love it. I've never bought a ticket and my daughter got her tuition covered.

Even still, when I read people complaing about the education system and it's cost I wonder if their solution is going to be to export their crappy system to my state. People often complain about teacher salaries, but a GA teacher makes a pretty good living for the amount of time they have to work and gets a pension, which almost no one in private work gets anymore. But even that varies greatly from system to system. That property tax money I pay means our city teachers make more than teachers in ajacent systems. Maybe people working on the one size fits all solutions should take an interest in their local communities and see what kind of change they can effect.

Not mentioned is whether the extra money we spend vs NH is yeilding better educational outcomes.

Followup to the question behind the financials; no, your taxes are not accounting for a 2/3 lower tuition for in-state students. To a great extent, it's actually the out-of-state students' tuition that subsidizes the in-state students. This is one of the reason why admitting foreign students is a hot-button financial issue for colleges, especially public colleges; they often come from well-to-do families in their home countries and pay full tuition, which lets states give the schools less support.
I guess it's good those rich foreigners are dumb enough to pay big bucks to send their kids to our crappy ed system. You'd link they'd go to one of the countries that has great ed for free. It also adds to confusion, if they are included in what the what the "average tuition" a student pays. What does an average GA resident pay out of pocket for college? I could argue that in state tuition subsidized by the state charging higher rates to out of state students is in fact state funding. Which section of the graph does that fall under?

GA, IMO, has a very good university system. If you don't go to tech or UGA you can still get an affordable, good education. Or you can send your kid out of state and pay a lot more. Which IMO is why a lot of people are paying too much for college. They seem to think their kid won't make it if they don't go the "best" college. Most CEO's didn't attend ivy league institutions.

Yes, it would; what you are leaving out is guidance from those experienced with the subject. Without that, how are you to know whether the reading list is "good" or the commentaries are reliable? Mentors need to get you from crawling to toddling to walking confidently in the profession. The degree is essential if you hope to have a teaching career at any level.

What you are suggesting in your first question does have merit if you hope to grow in your profession after your schooling ends. You have to self-educate; you have to become an independent self-directed learner. This is one of many bones I have to pick with higher education (and secondary as well): librarians are not given the time and opportunities to teach students how to achieve this self-directedness. The tools and skills. That takes at least a semester-long credit course to cover everything. The most that most of us get is a sixty- to ninety-minute one-shot lecture to show students how to fulfill an assignment. Not nearly enough.
I think I could probably get a reading list from a top teir program off the internet. I could probably figure out which commentaries they use. I could read the commentary from a top expert on the subject myself or I could pay someone else who was once assigned the commentary to assign it to me to read myself. Would I finish my self imposed learning program? Who knows? But there are lots of lottery scholarship students that don't finish either. Sounds like I need the degree if I want to teach others who want to teach others.

Which brings up another notion about teachers. I've had it in my mind that when I retire I might go into teaching to share what I've learned. I have a engineering degree, a 30 year career in aviation involving flying, teaching, maintenance and running small businesses and a 20 year career in industrial/commercial water treatment. You might think I'd be qualified to teach middle school algebra, physics, chemistry or a business class. But I'd have to go back to school get a degree in education. But a person right out of college with an education degree is qualified yet has none of that experience. Who would be a better teacher? Could go either way. My wife is working with a lot of brand new teachers. I think I could hang without the ed degree. But the people in the business of issuing ed degrees disagree.

My university actually has an award for professors who save the students money on textbooks. The problem with it for me is that I went as much as possible to open-source material years ago so I don't have any "savings" to show; most of my courses don't require any textbook purchase at all.
There's an educational lesson in there somewhere.
 

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