fEARful™ Part Eleven (11)

[pbasswil]

Hi all,

fEARful newbie here. Not being a very muscular creature, I'm very intrigued by the idea of a 12/6 weighing under 40lbs and at least approaching the sheer SPL of a modest 4 x 10.

However, I'm not sure I want or need the bass extension of these cabs. 2/3rds of my gigs are with subs, and I don't want to compete/interfere down there.

So my question is: short of specific high pass filters/EQs (involving more gear to plug in), is there a way to trim back the bass extension of a fEARful without adversely affecting mid-bass and low-mids?

For instance: Duke's Thunder Childs use port plugging for this purpose.

Thanks for any insight.

 

[Queg]

No tone controls on your amp? Just turn down the "bass" knob.

 

[Sundogue]

Hi all,

fEARful newbie here. Not being a very muscular creature, I'm very intrigued by the idea of a 12/6 weighing under 40lbs and at least approaching the sheer SPL of a modest 4 x 10.

However, I'm not sure I want or need the bass extension of these cabs. 2/3rds of my gigs are with subs, and I don't want to compete/interfere down there.

So my question is: short of specific high pass filters/EQs (involving more gear to plug in), is there a way to trim back the bass extension of a fEARful without adversely affecting mid-bass and low-mids?

For instance: Duke's Thunder Childs use port plugging for this purpose.

Thanks for any insight.

All of my gigs with my classic hard rock band are with subs (two JBL SRX728's driven by two 4000 watt QSC power amps). I'm using a Carvin BX1200 (bridged at 800 watts into 8 ohms) into my fEARful 15/6.

I DO NOT dial back my lows. They are kicking out onstage and through the PA subs. All I can say is you haven't heard low end with this much clarity before. My fEARful does not interfere with the PA. In fact, even keeping my lows pretty high (like flat at 50z, +6 at 80Hz, +12 at 100Hz, Bass at about +3) my mix in the PA has never been better. Best sound onstage and out front I've ever had. The 18 Sound mid really cuts through and sounds fabulous anywhere onstage or off.

Having said that, depending on the amp or EQ you use, you can boost anything you want or cut anything you don't and the fEARful will produce that for you.

Most cabs do not produce decent enough low end and when you do boost it, it makes the upper bass/lo-mids sound like crap and that's where you get this idea that "low end" creates mud. It doesn't, but poorly designed cabs do.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

I agree with Sundogue. I was at a festival all weekend and my 15/6/1 + 12/6/1 was the house bass rig. A couple of bands used their own rigs, mostly SVTs. When I heard them from out front, there was that classic mud going on. When I heard my rig from out front, I casually mentioned to the soundguy that it probably wasn't reaching out that far and not interfering with the PA. He told me in no uncertain terms that my rig was definitely reaching out into the audience quite a bit but was completely cooperating with the PA, not competing with it. He loves my rig!

 

[pbasswil]

No tone controls on your amp? Just turn down the "bass" knob.

I guess my question wasn't clear.

The low shelving on my Shuttle 9 hinges at 80hz, and of course takes out higher freqs too, the more you subtract. That's not what I was after.

I was asking about trimming bass extension (how deep into the sub freqs it reaches), not the amplitude of the middle-lows. A high pass filter could be set at, say, 55hz; but I was looking to avoid adding more gear.

 

[pbasswil]

Sundogue & edwinhurwitz, thanks for your perspectives.

The thing that got me somewhat concerned was a quote from greenboy:

...as I've said in detail any number of times in various forums, there is usually a disadvantage in having sub-100 Hz sources spread out across a club-sized venue. It's a recipe for destructive cancellations and build-ups in the bass range. This is why canny operators usually set up PA in clubs is with centralized subwoofer stacks, while "mains" handling above the lower frequencies can be spread out.

Having a great sounding speaker like a fEARful, I just know I'm going to want to crank it! So my subs freqs are going to make it out front for sure.

I'm no sound engineer, but if you have two sources of sub lows pumping the same signal, isn't it kind of a roll of the dice whether they're in phase with each other, or out of phase and canceling each other??

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Sundogue & edwinhurwitz, thanks for your perspectives.

The thing that got me somewhat concerned was a quote from greenboy:



Having a great sounding speaker like a fEARful, I just know I'm going to want to crank it! So my subs freqs are going to make it out front for sure.

I'm no sound engineer, but if you have two sources of sub lows pumping the same signal, isn't it kind of a roll of the dice whether they're in phase with each other, or out of phase and canceling each other??

Not if: a) you are sending a phase consistent signal from the DI and your rig and b) the PA is properly phase consistent and c) your sound person is at all competent and checks these things. Our guy, Ralph Pitt, went so far as to time align the PA to the stage sound, as well as checking all the polarities of the low end sources, so with a person like that driving the rig, you know it's going to be right.

So far, I've had various sound guys tell me how great it sounds and when I ask if I should turn down, I get a vehement no.

 

[pbasswil]

Not if: a) you are sending a phase consistent signal from the DI and your rig and b) the PA is properly phase consistent and c) your sound person is at all competent and checks these things. Our guy, Ralph Pitt, went so far as to time align the PA to the stage sound, as well as checking all the polarities of the low end sources, so with a person like that driving the rig, you know it's going to be right.

So far, I've had various sound guys tell me how great it sounds and when I ask if I should turn down, I get a vehement no.

Can I bring Ralph to all my gigs?
Unfortunately I'm not playing gigs at the level where we get anything like that kind of expertise or diligence.

However, I'm led to believe that the D.I. out of the GenzBenz heads is pretty high quality, and so it's likely phase consistent.

Anyway, your enthusiasm for these cabs sure is firing me up.

Say, you sound like a knowledgeable guy; what would be the effect of plugging the ports on a fEARful, anyway? (Just curious, since it works on the Thunderchilds.)

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Can I bring Ralph to all my gigs?
Unfortunately I'm not playing gigs at the level where we get anything like that kind of expertise or diligence.

However, I'm led to believe that the D.I. out of the GenzBenz heads is pretty high quality, and so it's likely phase consistent.

Anyway, your enthusiasm for these cabs sure is firing me up.

Say, you sound like a knowledgeable guy; what would be the effect of plugging the ports on a fEARful, anyway? (Just curious, since it works on the Thunderchilds.)

I'd love to bring Ralph to all my gigs too! Sadly for me, he gets lots of road offers, these days he tours with Leftover Salmon and others. However, he's going to be a fixture at this venue, so when we play there, he'll be available. There are other Ralphs out there, but he's a true gem among sound folks. Knowledgeable, patient and focused and good with all kinds of music.

I think plugging the ports would be a mistake, but I am not an expert on these things. The fEARful is a carefully tuned system and I see no reason to subvert the way it's designed.

 

[1n3]

I was at a festival all weekend and my 15/6/1 + 12/6/1 was the house bass rig...

Nice rig! But... no grill? A brave act.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

Nice rig! But... no grill? A brave act.

I didn't have time to get that figured out. Also no handles, but at that weight, it hardly needs them. This is what the cabinet looked like last Wednesday. Finish went on on Thursday.

I'm still on the fence about the grill as far as what kind to put on there.

 

[edwinhurwitz]

And in action:

 

[Plstrns]

Post #791

I see wood working tools there, No excuses!

Post #792

I could only think Da Da DaDaDADA Level 42- Something about you.

 

[Plstrns]

Talking price? I got 6 slide rails for each 1515/66 @ $8 each? I think they may have been more actually, but included hardware. Building by GB's instruction (everything from Leland except the wood, 18 sounds, grille, grille stand offs, caster screws, wiring, insulation, angle aluminum and foam tape) plus the rails, top back corner handles, and FC casters/ angle aluminum on the back rear. No horn, no crossover, and great prices on speakers my 1515/66's where +/- $900 per.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

Sundogue & edwinhurwitz, thanks for your perspectives.

The thing that got me somewhat concerned was a quote from greenboy:



Having a great sounding speaker like a fEARful, I just know I'm going to want to crank it! So my subs freqs are going to make it out front for sure.

I'm no sound engineer, but if you have two sources of sub lows pumping the same signal, isn't it kind of a roll of the dice whether they're in phase with each other, or out of phase and canceling each other??

This has happened to me. Not a large venue, but the sound guy insisted I send a a DI signal to his board. Based on a recording with a mic in front of the band, the out-of-phase bass signal sounded like mud. Unplugged the DI, problem solved. The sound person has to have tools to deal with this issue or we're doing nothing but perpetuating "SVT mud."

 

[steve_rolfeca]

This has happened to me. Not a large venue, but the sound guy insisted I send a a DI signal to his board. Based on a recording with a mic in front of the band, the out-of-phase bass signal sounded like mud. Unplugged the DI, problem solved. The sound person has to have tools to deal with this issue or we're doing nothing but perpetuating "SVT mud."

I've only had to use it a couple of times, but I carry a short reverse adapter in my gig bag. Problem solved...

 

[pbasswil]

This has happened to me. Not a large venue, but the sound guy insisted I send a a DI signal to his board. Based on a recording with a mic in front of the band, the out-of-phase bass signal sounded like mud. Unplugged the DI, problem solved. The sound person has to have tools to deal with this issue or we're doing nothing but perpetuating "SVT mud."

Thanks for this, Ukiah. This is exactly what I suspected would happen -- in some situations, depending on venue/sound guy/PA.

Assuming we can't always hope to replace the PA and fill every room with the necessary lows from our one spot on stage (and nor is that necessarily desirable anyways) it seems to me that a good high-pass filter would be an excellent accessory for any fEARful owner to own.

 

[pbasswil]

I've only had to use it a couple of times, but I carry a short reverse adapter in my gig bag. Problem solved...

Another excellent accessory!

Damn though, I hate having to worry about stuff like that when the sound guy isn't really on the ball, or he's not on site long enough to sort this stuff out. (i.e., 50% of the time!)

All things considered, when there's a PA with subs, I'd rather have my stage amp putting out a really "tight" bass that concentrates on the higher-lows and low-mids. The sub-freqs just get in the way of the kick and, often enough, turn a hollow stage into a giant frame drum!

 

[BurningSkies]

More often than not, I've found that I have fewer problems with FOH sound with my fEARful than my old setup. I can be louder and the soundman is perfectly happy with the bass tone out front, using the PA to support my sound if needed, but in most cases, using the PA to bring the rest of the band up and around my sound.

I also think having my lows coming from a single point rather than a PA that's left & right of the stage space helps what's being heard out front. Many places that have subs are using multiple subs in a variety of spacings which wreaks havoc on the lows...or depending on the club, my speakers are capable of cleaner louder lows than the washy mess of cheap underpowered subs.

 

[cymatics]

Assuming we can't always hope to replace the PA and fill every room with the necessary lows from our one spot on stage (and nor is that necessarily desirable anyways) it seems to me that a good high-pass filter would be an excellent accessory for any fEARful owner to own.

A high pass still won't solve the issue of your rig being out of phase with the front-of-house. A high pass filter with a steep enough cut that is set low enough to to remove any potentially problematic low frequency content from your stage sound will leave you sounding like you are playing through a bullhorn.

If this set of circumstances pops up enough to be an issue for you then get Invalid Link Removedif you use a DI or if your cabs are mic'ed, simply wire up a speaker cable with the conductors flipped at one end.