Finally Played One and It Was Terrifying. ;)

[Sundogue]

Bass players (especially on TB) have been begging for years for a cab that is...

- Lightweight (as compared to output)
- Small (easily manageable for any gig)
- Loud (any gig volume without farting out)
- Low (sub 100Hz)
- Tonally versatile (few design limitations to sound)
- Ability to carry a room without PA support

Now, make a list of all the commercially available cabs that meet ALL those criteria that also don't cost a fortune.

I find it a bit odd when something comes out that (for the most part) actually fulfills the expressed needs and desires of the TB community, that some choose to single out any one of those criteria as a way to dismiss what we've been offered.

I'm grateful for the fEARful (and similar designs) craze. It's gotten us all closer to what we've been begging for since I joined TB. May not be for everyone, but it sure beats a lot of the alternatives the AMPS section has seen it's share of complaints from.

Let's see that list.

 

[pbasswil]

I don't know about anyone else, but rating a cab -- any cab -- as "better than" or "inferior to" another one is just way too little information to be useful.

Consider the variables that come in to play in producing bass tone:

Bass.
Pickup blend & control setting choice.
Style of string attack (and how far from bridge).
Type of strings.
Length of cable (if passive bass).
Type of amplifier/preamp&power amp.
Amp/Preamp settings (many are almost infinitely variable).
Room & resonances.
Then there's the band mix you're playing in, and how you need to cut through it, or blend into it.

So you have all those variables (some of which change from song to song). And you want the best cab to convert that signal into airborn vibrations to suit the music you're playing at the moment.

Yikes! There are a bazillion ways to make a brighter or duller bass sound. There are a zillion choices of how bright or dull the bass sound should be.

Tons of folks have made and continue to make great music thru Ampeg fridges.
Tons of folks are making great music thru fEARfuls and similar.

If you are musical, you will find the signal path -- including cab choice -- that works for your music.

So why do we feel the need to crown one cab "superior" to another? Doesn't that depend entirely on your tonal goals and needs? Which in turn is related to the choices you've made in the rest of your signal path?

My point is: "best" is only relevant when in the context of "best way to meet one's personal tone goals".

 

[Chef]

I find all of this to be quite true, for me at least.

Well, one caveat.
I doubt there are tons of people with fEARfuls.
Certainly hundreds. Maybe even a thousand. Two thousand...?
I dunno.
That'd be interesting to know.

Yikes! There are a bazillion ways to make a brighter or duller bass sound. There are a zillion choices of how bright or dull the bass sound should be.

Tons of folks have made and continue to make great music thru Ampeg fridges.
Tons of folks are making great music thru fEARfuls and similar.

If you are musical, you will find the signal path -- including cab choice -- that works for your music.

So why do we feel the need to crown one cab "superior" to another? Doesn't that depend entirely on your tonal goals and needs? Which in turn is related to the choices you've made in the rest of your signal path?

My point is: "best" is only relevant when in the context of "best way to meet one's personal tone goals".

 

[dukeorock]

This is a fEARful thread, correct? Why wouldn't folks sing the praises of these cabs in the proper context?

I see a lot of greenboy fans get shot down, often rightfully so, for dogging other cabs and designs, which of course shouldn't be done on a thread about 410's, if only because there isn't a greenboy 410 and probably never will be. Often times, threads get derailed by the over zealous.

Then there's the threads that go something like "Genz Uber or Aguilar?" And a million people jump in to say "Markbass!" "Mesa!" or whatever, instead of staying on topic.

I will say it seems perfectly fine for so many to jump into a greenboy thread and point out that 'they're not for everyone,' or the couple dedicated trolls who want to dismiss something out of hand, most of whom haven't even heard a greenboy cab. That's a little hypocritical.

Thank goodness for the mods who make a very honest attempt to keep things on topic, stay unbiased and make Talkbass the incredibly valuable site that it is...for ALL OF US

 

[Calaverasgrande]

Bass players (especially on TB) have been begging for years for a cab that is...

- Lightweight (as compared to output)
- Small (easily manageable for any gig)
- Loud (any gig volume without farting out)
- Low (sub 100Hz)
- Tonally versatile (few design limitations to sound)
- Ability to carry a room without PA support

Now, make a list of all the commercially available cabs that meet ALL those criteria that also don't cost a fortune.

I find it a bit odd when something comes out that (for the most part) actually fulfills the expressed needs and desires of the TB community, that some choose to single out any one of those criteria as a way to dismiss what we've been offered.

well except if you have one built for you they are pretty expensive. And from what I understand Fearfuls aren't necessarily competitive in terms of sensitivity. Being able to take a lot of power is relative to what your 1w/1m sensitivity is.

 

[scottfeldstein]

from what I understand Fearfuls aren't necessarily competitive in terms of sensitivity. Being able to take a lot of power is relative to what your 1w/1m sensitivity is.

I'd like to know more about this. Anyone?

 

[rpsands]

well except if you have one built for you they are pretty expensive. And from what I understand Fearfuls aren't necessarily competitive in terms of sensitivity. Being able to take a lot of power is relative to what your 1w/1m sensitivity is.

This is pretty misleading. A typical 4x10 has a calculated sensitivity of 98db. A fEarful 15/6's calculated sensitivity is around 97db but has twice as much excursion limited power handling and similar thermal characteristics.

A super high end 4x10 might have a calculated sensitivity of 100db (while having half the excursion capability of the fEarful, and of course the midrange limitations, and inferior low end-- -3db at 60hz for a typical high end 4x10).

Now, typical 4x10s will while you're standing directly in front of them, go up 3-6db in the midrange, but the midrange is never a limiter of your volume, and the destructive interference of the 4x10 design sacrifices some of that midrange.

Bottom line, a 15/6 is a very competitive match to a 4x10 in sensitivity, with massively more power handling (in a way that is meaningful for bass: excursion), superior dispersion characteristics, and lighter weight.

A 12/6 is usually a good 2x10 replacement, but can with enough power be competitive with cheap 4x10s. Calculated sensitivity is around 93.5db or so.

Summarized:
High end 4x10 (say, deltalites) - 100db, -3db @ 60hz, 1000w thermal, 400w excursion (approx)
15/6 - 97db, -3db @ 45hz, ~550w thermal, 800w excursion (approx)

High end 2x10 - 97db, -3db @ 60hz, 500w thermal, 200w excursion (approx)
12/6 - 93.5db, -3db @ 45hz, ~550w thermal, 450w excursion

Typically you gain half an octave of low end, lose some upper mid sensitivity on-axis, gain a lot of real world power handling, and lose some overall sensitivity.

Something to keep in mind is that the folks who speak to issues with excursion limited power handling being higher than thermal power handling are generally exaggerating.

For bass guitar, having as much or more excursion capability as your thermal wattage figure is highly desirable. It's really rare for a bass player to generate as much continuous signal as a sine wave. Instead, bass signals have large transients and lower average signals, without extreme compression anyway.

Having enough excursion on tap to deal with a high crest factor signal is far more important to a clean tone than having tons of thermal power handling.

 

[dukeorock]

I'd like to know more about this. Anyone?

What are we comparing to what?

 

[will33]

This is a fEARful thread, correct? Why wouldn't folks sing the praises of these cabs in the proper context?

I see a lot of greenboy fans get shot down, often rightfully so, for dogging other cabs and designs, which of course shouldn't be done on a thread about 410's, if only because there isn't a greenboy 410 and probably never will be. Often times, threads get derailed by the over zealous.

Then there's the threads that go something like "Genz Uber or Aguilar?" And a million people jump in to say "Markbass!" "Mesa!" or whatever, instead of staying on topic.

I will say it seems perfectly fine for so many to jump into a greenboy thread and point out that 'they're not for everyone,' or the couple dedicated trolls who want to dismiss something out of hand, most of whom haven't even heard a greenboy cab. That's a little hypocritical.

Thank goodness for the mods who make a very honest attempt to keep things on topic, stay unbiased and make Talkbass the incredibly valuable site that it is...for ALL OF US

I'd pretty much agree with this. Some come off as overzealous, or having the impression of "everything else sucks" even if they don't come right out and say it in exact words. Which I think kinda sucks on both ends, by sort of painting their fans into a corner, making it difficult for some to just say "hey, I really like this thing better than my old stuff" without coming off as snooty about it.

The thing is no doubt a great design that takes advantage of some of the really high performance drivers that are available. That said, no cab is for everybody, including fearfuls and 810s. Can't count how many threads people ask about some speaker and it's just answered by a bunch of people saying "get a fearful" when sometimes that isn't the best solution. For others, it may be the best solution, but how would you know when according to some, a fearful is the answer to everything.

Somebody likes their stuff and wants people to know about it, that's cool. Somebody gets all gear-snob about it, very uncool.

Can only cite myself as an example. If I got a fearful, I'd be dialing out of it some of the things it does that other cabs can't, namely super hot upper mid response (I'd keep that, just dial it down a few db), and dial out most of the bottom 1/2 octave of what it can do, pretty much taking away the reason for a super deep response (and costly) LF driver.

Likewise with the 810, I'd be looking for a little more bottom, not too much but a little more than it can give, and wanting for some uppermid clarity and dispersion it won't have no matter what you do.

So, neither is for me. That doesn't mean they're bad or that I need to be on here saying some cab I like is the best and both of those suck. I play stuff that does what I like. Yes, I know, "but you could eq a fearful to sound like that". Why mess with that when there's other stuff that does what I want plug-n-play.

fEARfuls are cool, Ampegs are cool, a little 1x6 ten watt rig is cool if that's what meets your needs and sounds good to you. Last I checked, rock-n-roll wasn't a competetive sport.

 

[D.A.R.K.]

Of course! I put em in all of my personal cabs, because I can turn em off when they're not needed...but I sometimes use them for drum machines, synth, PA monitors, practice mains, etc...Just saying if someone really does NOT want one, they can be had without

Well, to be fair there are pa cab designs with better throw/ dispersion in the high end for these applications (green boy designs some I believe).
My points refer specifically to bass cabinets.

 

[pbasswil]

This is a fEARful thread, correct? Why wouldn't folks sing the praises of these cabs in the proper context?

Not sure if that's a reaction to my post (#62), but in case it is, I sure have no objection to any singing of praises!

I was reacting to the assertion that fEARful cabs are absolutely superior to an Ampeg 8x10. Obviously the two have very different characteristics -- either of which may be preferable for certain players.

My point was: Any rating or comparison of cabs has to be relative to an individual's tonal goals. IOWs, if a given cab is working perfectly for someone, saying that a different cab is "better" is meaningless.

Absolute rankings/ratings only make sense if there's a widely accepted idea of what sounds good -- a consensus which you'll never, ever see on Talkbass! :^D Vive la différence.

(Btw, just for context: I have a fEARful, which I EQ heavily to get the tone I want -- and which I'm very glad to own.)

 

[jmpiwonka]

I'd pretty much agree with this...

^ everything he said...right on.

 

[CL400Peavey]

well except if you have one built for you they are pretty expensive. And from what I understand Fearfuls aren't necessarily competitive in terms of sensitivity. Being able to take a lot of power is relative to what your 1w/1m sensitivity is.

I'd like to know more about this. Anyone?

The 3015LF has a 98.4 db/w/m per Eminence's website. So below 800hz or so, its response is fan-fricken-tastic when compaired to commercial offerings. Above that the 18sound mid driver has a fantastic response to match the 3015LF. These are not the ACME cabs that trade in low sensitvity for low end extension. Also as opposed to puffed up manufacturers specs, these are from the driver manufacturers. You know what you are getting.

 

[rpsands]

the impression of "everything else sucks"

I'll cop to it. I think everything you can buy in stores sucks (in some way) with very few exceptions (the Genz vertical 2x12s, the 1288, and a few others).

Mesa cabs sound nice but are way too heavy and expensive. Ampeg is similar. Peavey is just too heavy. Markbass is too expensive for its performance. the list goes on.

I think there're a lot of builders out there doing stuff that is competitive with fEarfuls (e.g. making different tradeoffs), however.

 

[dukeorock]

Not sure if that's a reaction to my post (#62), but in case it is, I sure have no objection to any singing of praises!

I was reacting to the assertion that fEARful cabs are absolutely superior to an Ampeg 8x10. Obviously the two have very different characteristics -- either of which may be preferable for certain players.

My point was: Any rating or comparison of cabs has to be relative to an individual's tonal goals. IOWs, if a given cab is working perfectly for someone, saying that a different cab is "better" is meaningless.

Absolute rankings/ratings only make sense if there's a widely accepted idea of what sounds good -- a consensus which you'll never, ever see on Talkbass! :^D Vive la différence.

(Btw, just for context: I have a fEARful, which I EQ heavily to get the tone I want -- and which I'm very glad to own.)

I wasn't pointing fingers, brother! But in the context of this thread the OP was saying how much HE liked the fEARful compared to the 810...I wouldn't want to jump in and say that on an 810 thread, but someone else said it on this thread...all about differences, btw

 

[Sundogue]

well except if you have one built for you they are pretty expensive. And from what I understand Fearfuls aren't necessarily competitive in terms of sensitivity. Being able to take a lot of power is relative to what your 1w/1m sensitivity is.

Which was exactly my point in saying that people will take a single criteria and use it to make a point dismissing a fEARful (or similar design).

So what other cab can get as loud AND meet the other criteria? What other cab costs less AND meets the other criteria?

I'm not dissing other cabs. Give me a list that meets the criteria I listed as well as a fEARful (or similar design, ala Bareface, etc.).

There are always going to be compromises in cab design. I'd just like a list that shows other cabs that compromise as little as these designs.

 

[Chef]

Thanks for this post. It covers several topics nicely.

This is a fEARful thread, correct? Why wouldn't folks sing the praises of these cabs in the proper context?

I see a lot of greenboy fans get shot down, often rightfully so, for dogging other cabs and designs, which of course shouldn't be done on a thread about 410's, if only because there isn't a greenboy 410 and probably never will be. Often times, threads get derailed by the over zealous.

Then there's the threads that go something like "Genz Uber or Aguilar?" And a million people jump in to say "Markbass!" "Mesa!" or whatever, instead of staying on topic.

I will say it seems perfectly fine for so many to jump into a greenboy thread and point out that 'they're not for everyone,' or the couple dedicated trolls who want to dismiss something out of hand, most of whom haven't even heard a greenboy cab. That's a little hypocritical.

Thank goodness for the mods who make a very honest attempt to keep things on topic, stay unbiased and make Talkbass the incredibly valuable site that it is...for ALL OF US

 

[will33]

I'll cop to it. I think everything you can buy in stores sucks (in some way) with very few exceptions (the Genz vertical 2x12s, the 1288, and a few others).

Mesa cabs sound nice but are way too heavy and expensive. Ampeg is similar. Peavey is just too heavy. Markbass is too expensive for its performance. the list goes on.

I think there're a lot of builders out there doing stuff that is competitive with fEarfuls (e.g. making different tradeoffs), however.

That's all very true from a technical, datapoint type aspect. They do go lower, higher, more widely dispersed, take more power and turn it into clean sound, etc. than a lot of stuff out there. But, "tone" is a subjective thing most people aren't going to agree on. I'd also agree that four 10's in a cube is a pretty crap design, but if that's what floats someone's boat, who am I to tell them their stuff sucks and they should get something else instead?

It's the difference between educating/helping, telling people why their stuff works the way it does and some of that may be the reason they're not hearing some things they'd like to hear out of it....and just saying "that thing is crap, get what I have instead".

I dunno, the more I learn about this stuff and the more I experiment with it, the more I'm coming to like and appreciate things that aren't on-paper as perfect as they can be. I'm liking more speakers that get some "flavor" when you push them too far. I like stuff that does that without a bunch of extra effects or eq's. I'm pretty much commited to the "lower isn't always better" school of thought. I really don't care how deep sounding or loud some rig can get, if it's washing out other instruments it needs to be fixed. Different strokes I suppose.

I do agree that the insane marketing claims of some these "same-old" designs sells more of them than it should. Example is stupid low response specs. A lot of players would think "this one goes lower than that one, so it must be better". I would think "if it's that strong down there, I'll need to dial it back some to get a good mix, maybe there's something else that fits better so I won't be buying a bunch of performance in some area I won't use".

 

[Gab124]

fEarful are the best.....
As long as you play one with a solid state amp, with an active bass wearing nothing other than flats. Then that is tone nirvana...............I think,,,, or was that a passive P with rounds????

 

[CL400Peavey]

fEarful are the best.....
As long as you play one with a solid state amp, with an active bass wearing nothing other than flats. Then that is tone nirvana...............I think,,,, or was that a passive P with rounds????

Ah... no.

All tube head, have super slinky's....

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