Fodera Club Part IX

[cnltb]

Entering the realm of 'cool story, bro' legal bs. Get out while you still can.

As far as trademark is concerned, all the shape and wood combinations used by Fodera are public domain - there are lots of high quality luthiers making very similarly shaped basses (Marleaux and Wood & Tronics single cuts come to mind re: the Imperial design, but obviously there are many more). There is absolutely no way Fodera could make a trademark claim to any of those.

The one bass that there is a feasible claim for is the Yin Yang - the design aspects of wood blending in that model, and the clear and uniform visual they create in every bass of that model gives it a good shot of being protectable if that were copied.

The logo itself is another matter. Using both the name in the same font on the truss rod cover and the identically placed and shaped butterfly with what appears to be the same material is an open and shut case if Fodera haven't been letting that design be used freely.

Is there a downside that makes the past three paragraphs totally irrelevant in this case? Why yes, yes there is. Trademark law only applies to goods used in commerce, so if this guy is just making them for himself, as looks like the case here, it doesn't even apply. If he started selling them, be it openly as knock-off Foderas or actually trying to pass them off as Foderas, he would be in trouble under pretty much every provision of the Lanham Act. Even so, unless he's personally wealthy one guy with a wood shop isn't going to be able to cover Fodera's legal fees when he loses the case, so it would be a matter of Fodera investing money in brand name protection, rather than just getting an injunction against this guy and having their fees covered. It's not like he has a factory pumping out Fedoras as quickly as they can pump out Foderas.

Fodera could also use copyright in the same manner with the Yin Yang, but not the other bass designs/appearances. Even the Yin Yang would be a bit tough, as the woods chosen do have a specific functional quality - they are tone woods designed to produce the best sound, they just happen to be exquisite-looking also.

That would definitely be a problem with other models, with the YY maybe not so much, as the choice of woods is strictly limited to woods of the colour that can produce the artistic design, rather than producing a design requiring specific woods in that specific shape to produce the tone, with the graphic nature being secondary - compare the YYD and Monarch D in strictly tone and (correct me if I'm wrong) a monarch with, say, an alder body and ebony top would sound pretty similar to a Yin Yang with alder and ebony blended, assuming all electronics etc. were the same?

However, it's again pretty irrelevant in this case as the guy is likely judgment-proof so they would again be throwing money down a well to shut up one plagiarising jackass. I'm sure they have more constructive things to be investing in (sorry, my pun filter is broken).

I may be wrong but doesn't marleaux's M-bass ( their single cut) predate the imperial?
and that kind of borrows from lefay's capone which I think appeared in the 80's.
Neither is really a single cut though I think.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Nah, I have "downsized" to 10...of course, next week I take delivery of the two that I ordered in the Fall of 2009. Cannot wait. These two are stunningly beautiful...cannot wait to hear how they sound and feel what they play like!!!

J

I bet Jason's collection of Fodera's has grown to a point where they will need a truck on their own to get to the new place

 

[Just Thumpin']

Well folks, just got the network up at the new house so we are gradually getting there. Curt, I am thrilled that this was your reaction to your bass...it directly parallels the feelings that I had when I first played a Fodera...which obviously started my life down a path that I had not previously envisioned. Play it in good health!!

J

Hi everyone!

And a heartfelt thank you to all who have sent their best wishes... Well, the bass is here, and I am, well, like, WOW! Never having even seen a Fodera in person, much less held or played one...I am about as close to speechless as one can be. I have never even held an instrument that is as 'one of a piece' as this thing is. I don't know how else to say it. It's like it was hewn out of a solid piece of wood. It's spectacularly DENSE FEELING, but actually light in weight. I mean that in the best possible way. I've NEVER felt anything quite like it. And I have 15 guitars/basses. Nothing compares to this bass. NOTHING! The workmanship is simply perfect. There isn't anything on this thing that isn't just...perfect! For the price, you would expect it to be perfect, but there's a difference between expecting, and actually seeing it in front of your eyes. Everything about it perfectly balanced, not just in terms of body/neck, but everything. I wish I could articulate what I'm feeling, and I'm afraid that I'm babbling, but I can't help it. That's just what this thing does to me. I an only say that I hope no young bassist ever gets one of these in their hands, because nothing else would ever come close to meeting this standard; they'd be ruined for life!

Now, on to what it plays like. Someone told me that Foderas play, not 'like butter', but rather 'like melted butter on a teflon surface.' Amazingly true. I'd asked that it be set up with action as low as possible. To say that they met that request would be to minimize the obvious skill it took to create an instrument that allows bass strings to sit so close to the frets and not make a sound that they're not supposed to. Phenomenal! I love the way the thing plays. Understatement of the decade! I would give you a report on the sound, but I've just barely started to hear what it can do, and I'm too tired and too nervous with this new toy to be able to do too much with it, yet. I will, and pictures are coming too, though you all know what it looks like. Suffice to say that I heard what sounded like at least a few Wooten tones out of it. Really. Not trying for that, they just happened.

Thank goodness for the excellence that is Fodera! Thanks to Jason, Vinny and Joey for making my perfect bass

 

[Christian Houmann]

Jason,

Any word on the Tony Grey signature? Yes, things go fast

Congrats with the new place

 

[Just Thumpin']

Yes, it IS in the works and should be done early in the new year. We actually found a fan of Tony's that was willing to swap his production slot with Tony so that we could get the bass done in time for a big gig that Tony wants to unveil it for.

It will have some very unique specs...that's all I am saying for now. Also, it is NOT a 6-string...

J

Jason,

Any word on the Tony Grey signature? Yes, things go fast

Congrats with the new place

 

[Christian Houmann]

Yes, it IS in the works and should be done early in the new year. We actually found a fan of Tony's that was willing to swap his production slot with Tony so that we could get the bass done in time for a big gig that Tony wants to unveil it for.

It will have some very unique specs...that's all I am saying for now. Also, it is NOT a 6-string...

J

Sounds like a great Fan

Tony's bass sounds very exciting! Going back 5 string or might a 4 string with P bass pickups

 

[Chansey]

Maybe it's just me, but I always thought Tony sounded the coolest when he was using his buckeye E-C 5 string.

 

[cnltb]

Yes, it IS in the works and should be done early in the new year. We actually found a fan of Tony's that was willing to swap his production slot with Tony so that we could get the bass done in time for a big gig that Tony wants to unveil it for.

It will have some very unique specs...that's all I am saying for now. Also, it is NOT a 6-string...

J

An all passive MG5 with an even shorter scale perhaps?

 

[KevinThomas]

i am sure Rolex feels the same way about China.....

Is this guy actually selling these knockoffs or is this a one off. Sucks either way for the guys and very expensive to litigate overseas. Ask gibson what then spend every year chasing knockoffs and patent infringement stuff. .

I have a feeling he is selling them, otherwise I have no idea what his reply means when someone said, "good job me... plug it in an amp," to which he replied, "this one is sold, next one will be recorded, thank's for me : )."

Another quote:
"how would I go about seeing your instruments?"
"sorry this bass is sold, at the moment I'm finishing another 2 basses Fodera replica so you can see them on my facebook page, just send friend req to Stevan Nimcevic, thank's and all the best."

 

[Angus]

It's terrible and pathetic that he is making Fodera replicas, but it's not like he is taking business away from Fodera. People in the market for that stuff are never going to buy a Fodera. It's not quite the same thing as a Fender copy, where the original and the replica are in the same price range.

 

[curt basner]

I am continuing to explore my new YY Deluxe, and continue to be amazingly thrilled. Just in case anyone cares, I've been playing it through a few different amps, a new Fender Bronco 40 'practice'/modeling amp, and a Bergantino IP310 /Fender TBP-1 preamp. Super cool sounds coming out of both.

I was messing around with other measurements this morning, and I realize why it feels so familiar. I know it sounds crazy not to have asked about fretboard/nut widths before buying it, but I had not. I was just A/B playing it again my Fender Jazz, and find that the nut width is EXACTLY the same as the Jazz, and the string width at the 20th fret is even more narrow than the Jazz, by about 1/16". NO WONDER it's so comfortable to play. So, for anyone who has been curious, and has not bothered to research these guys, those are the measurements. And damn fine measurements they are, too

 

[Molan]

Curt - does that mean your J has a wider nut width than the most common 1.5" or did the YY come with a 1.5" nut?

I played a Monarch at BassGear in the UK with a 1.5" nut and if played really nicely

 

[curt basner]

Hey Molan,

Both my Jazz and the Deluxe have 1.5" width nuts (from outer edge to outer edge). My guess is that the 'standard' width for the YY is 1.5", as I did not order anything unusual, and in fact purchased it with only weeks left to go before completion. What I thought interesting is that the string spacing is EXACTLY the same for both of them, not that there is much room outboard of the outer string nut slots to go any wider. What I was really getting at is that anyone used to a Jazz Bass would feel right at home with the YYD! I'd not known whether to expect a Jazz Bass type setup, or more like a Precision, or somewhere in the middle.

And I have to agree, it plays 'nicely', as you say!

 

[Christian Houmann]

 

[funkydanbass]

Such a beautiful bass Hou!

 

[Plunger]

+1

Hou, are those duel coils with plastic covers or with ebony?

 

[Christian Houmann]

+1

Hou, are those duel coils with plastic covers or with ebony?

That's Plastic! Maybe I should have gone with matching wood covers!

 

[harrybosch]

Hou, your bass looks awesome. In most cases I actually prefer the plastic covers to wood covers. Keep the plastic!

 

[Plunger]

Actually Hou, I think the solid plastic looks great as well! I have been wondering what they look like compared to plastic ones with the poles exposed, and with the spray finishes. I have recently started my "Quest for Fodera", and knowing how nice that looks will help me decide the specs I want on the rest of the bass.
For the past two months I have been saving every penny of gig and private lesson money for a Fodera. I should have the deposit for a 5 string Monarch ready to go by Springtime.

 

[thepontif]

Though I take offense to the opening line (this is in fact my professional life within a Fortune 200 company. Not as a lawyer, but as a client that the lawyers advise). I literally deal with this stuff all the time and have done so for 18 years.

If Fodera has not protected their designs, so be it. Though I would be SHOCKED if they couldn't protect the Yin Yang even today if they chose to do so (at least in the US - good luck with Europe). There is no way that a competitor could make the case that the YY's specific combination of wood in that specific design is an unavoidable functional necessity. Even with a bad judge there's no way that would fly.

That said, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying other than (no offense) you are speaking as a lawyer, not a business manager. Here's what I mean. How does Fodera know that this guy is making only a few for himself? That's his story. Perhaps it's true. Perhaps there are dozens of these being sold in local sales. It's one more thing for a little company to worry about.

I'm not suggesting that one infraction puts the logo in jeopardy. But what I am saying is that small companies do not want to be investing in legal defense on this kind of nonsense if they can avoid it. Nor do they want to be investing time and money in investigating if this sort of thing is truly a "one off" or if its a counterfeiter. Thats just money and time that they could have spent on better things thats gone up in smoke. And the notion of a company simply getting an immediate injunction with no out of pocket in the end well... Injunctions aren't easy (though this one is so aggregious that in fairness it probably would be easy) and I've rarely been *fully* compensated for defending trademarks. At least not without a whole lot of hassle and months of time invested. Often the little guy perp doesn't have the money to pay back and then what? You're just out of pocket.

Anyway, my broader point is this; this might be an innocent guy trying to pay respect to Fodera. However if he really respects Fodera he would stop ripping off their designs and logo. That only gives the company something to worry about and is not respectful at all.

Ok enough of this.... back to my bass.

Sorry for being frank, but I personally think this is all moot. If it's not an ACTUAL Fodera, it's existence probably only serves to make the real ones more valuable. And when you sell so many that you can't make them fast enough, and your backlog isn't getting smaller, what are you worried about? Nobody who WANTS a Fodera is going to be truly satisfied with a copy. Lot's of people who buy a Hyundai Genesis still want a BMW M3 or an Audi S4, and eventually will probably buy one when they can afford it. Chances are, if they buy a copy, it will only make them want the real thing worse, and eventually they'd buy the Fodera anyway. In a practical sense, I think the worst case scenario is, these copies have absolutely no bearing on Fodera or their future whatsoever, and best case, they help business.