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Fodera Club Part IX

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The Imperial II often grabs my eye on their website, but I never see it get discussed here, and it looks as though they are fairly rare. I keep thinking it looks as though it may be their most ergonomic model single cut design. Maybe I just like it because it's different.

Anyone here own one or checked one out? What did you notice about about the body style and how it affected your playing?

I have a small fantasy about getting a new Fodera built to my specs, and though the Emperor II I just bought used is pretty amazing, I keep thinking I prefer the imperial's lines.
 
Hi All,

Well, here's a few images of the new YYD that are not 'artistic', which is what this bass deserves, but at least they are more detailed, and you can get a better feel for this wonderful piece of work... By the way, I apologize for the considerable amount of dust which I failed to get off it before shooting, travesty that it is :D

Fodera-1-2.jpg

Fodera-3.jpg

Fodera-8.jpg

Fodera-11.jpg

Fodera-10.jpg

Fodera-12.jpg

Fodera-22.jpg

Fodera-26.jpg
 
Hi All,

Well, here's a few images of the new YYD that are not 'artistic', which is what this bass deserves, but at least they are more detailed, and you can get a better feel for this wonderful piece of work... By the way, I apologize for the considerable amount of dust which I failed to get off it before shooting, travesty that it is :D

Fodera-1-2.jpg


Once again Fodera amazes me :)
 
curt basner said:
Hi All,

Well, here's a few images of the new YYD that are not 'artistic', which is what this bass deserves, but at least they are more detailed, and you can get a better feel for this wonderful piece of work... By the way, I apologize for the considerable amount of dust which I failed to get off it before shooting, travesty that it is :D

Beautiful. Enjoy it.
 
@jumbo: I'm actually not sure what my other basses' action measurements are at the 12th fret, but the E for my Fodera is about 0.048" (a little over 3/64"), and 0.040" (a little under 3/64") for the G. These might be off a little (the true measurement may actually be slightly lower than these numbers), but they feel substantially lower than my other basses. Whatever the numbers, it's wayyy impressive!!!!

Update: Just measured my Jazz Bass. It's action at the 12th fret, E string, is .058". Pretty big difference. And I used to think the Jazz had pretty low action...
 
Yes. It's really damaging. I know quite a bit about this space because its relevant to my work.

"Shape" based trademarks (ie; the shape of the body design) are enforceable in the US, but they are very challenging to defend. Most countries don't really allow for it - but the US does. The way it works though, is that a company that wants to defend their "shape trademark" must defend it whenever they see someone knocking it off.

That sounds logical enough but it costs time and money to defend these things. For a small company that can be a real barrier - they simply don't have the cash or the manpower to defend all these violations.

The problem is - if you don't defend them - eventually you lose the right to defend them and then the design is (for all intents & purposes) public domain (like the Fender designs are today).

Brand trademarks are easier to defend but the same principle applies - if enough examples exist of a company not defending its trademark - they can lose that trademark. This is what happened to Bayer with "Aspirin". The term became so generic that eventually they couldn't claim it was theirs anymore.

So it seems innocent enough, but in reality it steals legitimate trademarks and designs from a very small company - and puts them at risk for losing those trademarks and designs. Since (I'm sure) Fodera has limited resources to fight these things - it really runs the risk of hurting the little guy.

So bottom line - this sort of thing is bad. It doesn't matter how "innocent" it appears to be. It hurts Fodera that somebody is out doing this and I hope they stop (and destroy that bass while they're at it).

Entering the realm of 'cool story, bro' legal bs. Get out while you still can.

As far as trademark is concerned, all the shape and wood combinations used by Fodera are public domain - there are lots of high quality luthiers making very similarly shaped basses (Marleaux and Wood & Tronics single cuts come to mind re: the Imperial design, but obviously there are many more). There is absolutely no way Fodera could make a trademark claim to any of those.

The one bass that there is a feasible claim for is the Yin Yang - the design aspects of wood blending in that model, and the clear and uniform visual they create in every bass of that model gives it a good shot of being protectable if that were copied.

The logo itself is another matter. Using both the name in the same font on the truss rod cover and the identically placed and shaped butterfly with what appears to be the same material is an open and shut case if Fodera haven't been letting that design be used freely.

Is there a downside that makes the past three paragraphs totally irrelevant in this case? Why yes, yes there is. Trademark law only applies to goods used in commerce, so if this guy is just making them for himself, as looks like the case here, it doesn't even apply. If he started selling them, be it openly as knock-off Foderas or actually trying to pass them off as Foderas, he would be in trouble under pretty much every provision of the Lanham Act. Even so, unless he's personally wealthy one guy with a wood shop isn't going to be able to cover Fodera's legal fees when he loses the case, so it would be a matter of Fodera investing money in brand name protection, rather than just getting an injunction against this guy and having their fees covered. It's not like he has a factory pumping out Fedoras as quickly as they can pump out Foderas.

Fodera could also use copyright in the same manner with the Yin Yang, but not the other bass designs/appearances. Even the Yin Yang would be a bit tough, as the woods chosen do have a specific functional quality - they are tone woods designed to produce the best sound, they just happen to be exquisite-looking also.

That would definitely be a problem with other models, with the YY maybe not so much, as the choice of woods is strictly limited to woods of the colour that can produce the artistic design, rather than producing a design requiring specific woods in that specific shape to produce the tone, with the graphic nature being secondary - compare the YYD and Monarch D in strictly tone and (correct me if I'm wrong) a monarch with, say, an alder body and ebony top would sound pretty similar to a Yin Yang with alder and ebony blended, assuming all electronics etc. were the same?

However, it's again pretty irrelevant in this case as the guy is likely judgment-proof so they would again be throwing money down a well to shut up one plagiarising jackass. I'm sure they have more constructive things to be investing in (sorry, my pun filter is broken).
 
Entering the realm of 'cool story, bro' legal bs. Get out while you still can.

.


Though I take offense to the opening line (this is in fact my professional life within a Fortune 200 company. Not as a lawyer, but as a client that the lawyers advise). I literally deal with this stuff all the time and have done so for 18 years.

If Fodera has not protected their designs, so be it. Though I would be SHOCKED if they couldn't protect the Yin Yang even today if they chose to do so (at least in the US - good luck with Europe). There is no way that a competitor could make the case that the YY's specific combination of wood in that specific design is an unavoidable functional necessity. Even with a bad judge there's no way that would fly.

That said, I don't disagree with much of what you are saying other than (no offense) you are speaking as a lawyer, not a business manager. Here's what I mean. How does Fodera know that this guy is making only a few for himself? That's his story. Perhaps it's true. Perhaps there are dozens of these being sold in local sales. It's one more thing for a little company to worry about.

I'm not suggesting that one infraction puts the logo in jeopardy. But what I am saying is that small companies do not want to be investing in legal defense on this kind of nonsense if they can avoid it. Nor do they want to be investing time and money in investigating if this sort of thing is truly a "one off" or if its a counterfeiter. Thats just money and time that they could have spent on better things thats gone up in smoke. And the notion of a company simply getting an immediate injunction with no out of pocket in the end well... Injunctions aren't easy (though this one is so aggregious that in fairness it probably would be easy) and I've rarely been *fully* compensated for defending trademarks. At least not without a whole lot of hassle and months of time invested. Often the little guy perp doesn't have the money to pay back and then what? You're just out of pocket.

Anyway, my broader point is this; this might be an innocent guy trying to pay respect to Fodera. However if he really respects Fodera he would stop ripping off their designs and logo. That only gives the company something to worry about and is not respectful at all.

Ok enough of this.... back to my bass. :bassist:
 
Firstly, the first line was an introductory warning to my post, not a reaction to yours. It was in no way meant to be disparaging to the issue or to you, only to myself!

I don't think we have any disagreement here. I think this guy is an unoriginal, plagiaristic jackass, and he has no right at all to do what he's doing. I was in no way trying to defend him or belittle the issue, just, as you say, highlighting the fact that while this has an annoying and maybe harmful effect on Fodera, it is, as we both said, too expensive to take any further for a company with the size of budget that Fodera has.

As for him potentially selling them by the truckload locally with nobody getting wind of it, I find that highly unlikely, and anyone who knows enough to be interested in a Fodera anyway knows real ones don't get sold out the back of a truck. If he were doing so, would it dilute and harm the brand at all? Yes. Would it have any noticeable effect on Fodera's sales? No.

Fodera caters to a very small minority of people - it's not like fashion designers, where everyone knows the brand, everyone wants nice clothes/handbags or whatever, and most people can't tell the difference. Fodera exists based on their second-to-none level of craftsmanship and customisation. Maybe there are a few people who buy them as a status symbol, but the only people who they would be showing off to are likely those who would know a fake if they saw it.

The Fodera market is for highly discerning, often professional, players. Even those (like myself) who aren't top level players, still understand why Foderas are great, and would find getting a fake objectionable and pointless - there are fantastic basses you can get for less money, just not quite as fantastic. Fodera can have prices at their level because they are the best of the best (that is in no way a 'Foderas are overprices comment, just to be clear). It's a lot easier to sell something that looks like Versace clothing for cheap knock-off prices. If that guy tried to sell the bass he is playing in that video to anyone who even knew who Fodera were he would be laughed out of town - if he tried to sell it near Fodera market prices it would be inspected and found out to be a knock-off, and if he tried to sell it at knock-off prices it would be obvious it was a fake.
 
Fair enough, I think I did indeed misunderstand your opening line.

Anyway, I think we're agreeing. I just take trademarks seriously and always feel bad for little companies that don't have millions to spend defending them getting knocked off. This may be a one off but....
 
I totally agree. It sucks for Fodera that someone is doing this. The legal reasons why actually making a case out of it is a bad idea were in no way meant to imply that Fodera don't deserve this guy off their back, or, if legal costs weren't an issue, that they wouldn't wipe the floor with him. This guy managing to sell one fake Fodera would have more effect on them than some other guy selling 10000 fake Fenders, but the unfortunate reality is that it's the second guy who would end up in court with his wallet empty.
 
i am sure Rolex feels the same way about China.....

Is this guy actually selling these knockoffs or is this a one off. Sucks either way for the guys and very expensive to litigate overseas. Ask gibson what then spend every year chasing knockoffs and patent infringement stuff. .
 
@jumbo: I'm actually not sure what my other basses' action measurements are at the 12th fret, but the E for my Fodera is about 0.048" (a little over 3/64"), and 0.040" (a little under 3/64") for the G. These might be off a little (the true measurement may actually be slightly lower than these numbers), but they feel substantially lower than my other basses. Whatever the numbers, it's wayyy impressive!!!!

Update: Just measured my Jazz Bass. It's action at the 12th fret, E string, is .058". Pretty big difference. And I used to think the Jazz had pretty low action...

Curt that bass is amazing. the closeup pictures are killing me. I may like yours even more than the one in jason's avatar.
I think i will be bringing in one of my monarchs for some flats. I have 3 pj foderas so one can be different. I actually put labella flats on another bass i have with emg's and really like the thump especially the neck pup solo'd. thinking TI for this one a little more zing than the labellas.
 
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