Fodera Club Part XX

[Just Thumpin']

Actually, an Emperor II with exactly the same woods as a Presentation and a chambered body wold run approximately $16,600. The difference of $3,400 is all labor for additional time spent on wood selection and Vinny personally hand carving the top -- which, as I stated earlier, can take him the better part of a week.

Of course, if you bought your Emperor II with a non-solid Flame Maple top, a "normal" FB and one Duncan with a plastic PUP cover you would be at $10,575.

Regards,

Jason

I've always wondered that as well. It seems if you have the guys build you a 36" scale Imperial 6 with an AJ shape sans electronics, you can walk away with a fairly similar bass for about $13,000 less. Of course I know the tops on the presentations are supposed to be second to none, not to mention the chambering and special Duncan pup, but this has always thrown me as well. Twice as much labor? Sounds like kind of a stretch to me....not saying they don't put more love into the presentations, as they should for that kind of money, but I don't see how it could be THAT much more time consuming over any of the other insanely detailed and expensive works of art they're busy making now....

 

[Just Thumpin']

We are about 75% finished with AJ's next instrument which will employ our patented heel-less Hybrid build. It will be 50% more expensive than the current Presentation. We will build just 3-4 per year. Presently we are sold out on them through the third quarter of 2014.

The one that we have already built sounds like nothing any of us have ever heard before -- in the finest possible sense.

J

Yeah, if my understanding is correct, that bass was/is a prototype for the next AJ. It has patented construction techniques and is at least semi-hollow, with all the deluxe woodworking we're all accustomed to seeing.

If Anthony keeps up his unprecedented touring schedule, I hope to see him out and around with this bass in the next few years.

 

[cnltb]

We are about 75% finished with AJ's next instrument which will employ our patented heel-less Hybrid build. It will be 50% more expensive than the current Presentation. We will build just 3-4 per year. Presently we are sold out on them through the third quarter of 2014.

The one that we have already built sounds like nothing any of us have ever heard before -- in the finest possible sense.

J

Are there any sound clips of it somewhere online?

 

[Just Thumpin']

That is the farthest possible thing from the way it actually went down. Creating the first "rational" price list for the shop back in 2010 when I first became a partner involved a very extensive analyisi of our costs -- especially labor costs. Labor is an area that most luthiers absurdly undercharge for and we made a decision to price our products in a way that ensured that Fodera could stay in business and earn a modest return to us as owners.

Again, in numerous other spots I have posted about our profit margins being roughly 10% +/-...

J

And since Fodera can charge whatever they want and clearly people will pay it, they probably said "***?! Let's go nuts!" haha at least that's how I want to imagine it going down.

 

[Baird6869]

Again, in numerous other spots I have posted about our profit margins being roughly 10% +/-...

I am in a very competitive business and we walk from most deals under 50%. 10% is low in almost every business I know of..... Especially for a manufacturer. You should raise your prices.... After my Monarch is finished.

 

[Vic]

I mean, not to be that guy who questions Foderas pricing, but IMO it seems the AJ Presentation is just the flagship of the Fodera shop. And since Fodera can charge whatever they want and clearly people will pay it, they probably said "***?! Let's go nuts!" haha at least that's how I want to imagine it going down....I just can't really see why a Presentation (non hybrid) would cost THAT much more than any other Imperial, even with a 5A top and titanium bridge. Especially since scale length and body shape don't cost anything extra. I'm sure Jason has answered this before, but I'm lazy and I love to make assumptions.

Jason's already responded on this, but I'd just like to add that no business, even at the premier level like they are, could survive with this mentality. Fodera's methods/pricing has limited their customer base to a very small minority of the market out there. It would be foolish... no... deadly... to artificially bloat the price to (potentially significantly) limit that market further.

I've spoken to Jason about this in the past as well, noting I've been buying premier instruments for a while now, and have previously just not been able to make this happen... so they've been on my personal bucket list for a while now. Trust me, one of the things they've worked hardest at recently is revamping the business to achieve two important goals...

1.) They have to live. The business has to survive, and, nobody at Fodera is getting filthy rich doing this. That's not why they do it. Watch the vids on this stuff. They aren't lying.

2.) They want to expand their customer bass, not shrink it (to help with #1). That's where the Standard instruments came from. A clear indication that, if anything, lowering, not raising, their pricing is what their interested in... to make their instruments more "available".

At least this is my take on things. I think I have it right.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

Jason's already responded on this, but I'd just like to add that no business, even at the premier level like they are, could survive with this mentality. Fodera's methods/pricing has limited their customer base to a very small minority of the market out there. It would be foolish... no... deadly... to artificially bloat the price to (potentially significantly) limit that market further.

I've spoken to Jason about this in the past as well, noting I've been buying premier instruments for a while now, and have previously just not been able to make this happen... so they've been on my personal bucket list for a while now. Trust me, one of the things they've worked hardest at recently is revamping the business to achieve two important goals...

1.) They have to live. The business has to survive, and, nobody at Fodera is getting filthy rich doing this. That's not why they do it. Watch the vids on this stuff. They aren't lying.

2.) They want to expand their customer bass, not shrink it (to help with #1). That's where the Standard instruments came from. A clear indication that, if anything, lowering, not raising, their pricing is what their interested in... to make their instruments more "available".

At least this is my take on things. I think I have it right.

Oh I was never saying anyone was lying, somebody just brought up why the Presentations were so much more expensive than an Imperial 6 with similar specs. I had always wondered as well. If I didn't agree with Fodera's pricing I wouldn't have bought one, and since I have, I can say it's one of the few things I've ever bought that I feel is worth nearly every penny. But I appreciate the response, Jason! I think even if Fodera charged double the price right now they'd still have a waiting list....

 

[chris.gotfunk]

+1 Vic. Well said.

Jason's already responded on this, but I'd just like to add that no business, even at the premier level like they are, could survive with this mentality. Fodera's methods/pricing has limited their customer base to a very small minority of the market out there. It would be foolish... no... deadly... to artificially bloat the price to (potentially significantly) limit that market further.

I've spoken to Jason about this in the past as well, noting I've been buying premier instruments for a while now, and have previously just not been able to make this happen... so they've been on my personal bucket list for a while now. Trust me, one of the things they've worked hardest at recently is revamping the business to achieve two important goals...

1.) They have to live. The business has to survive, and, nobody at Fodera is getting filthy rich doing this. That's not why they do it. Watch the vids on this stuff. They aren't lying.

2.) They want to expand their customer bass, not shrink it (to help with #1). That's where the Standard instruments came from. A clear indication that, if anything, lowering, not raising, their pricing is what their interested in... to make their instruments more "available".

At least this is my take on things. I think I have it right.

 

[Vic]

Oh I was never saying anyone was lying...

I know.

But just to make sure we're on the same page... it was also not at all my intent to imply you suggested they were lying.

Just FYI, lying and having a price with a large profit margin built-in due to supply/demand valuation, are not at all the same thing.

Remember, pricing is based on what the market will bear... NOT (at least strictly) what something costs to make.

It's all good.

 

[iwearpumas]

I wonder why people don't buy Ying Yang basses as Elite, rather than Deluxe.

 

[Steveman]

I wonder why people don't buy Ying Yang basses as Elite, rather than Deluxe.

It's probably way harder to do a yin-yang solid top on an elite than it is to do a deluxe. Remember, there's an up-charge for a solid-top on an elite due to the extra labor involved, there's probably at least twice as much more labor involved when dealing with the yin-yang.

 

[DirtPoorRobins]

They have done elite yin yang basses in the past, but you're probably right, more time consuming.

 

[nostatic]

I think it more likely is that the YYD is essentially a "signature" instrument, and the original was a dovetail.

 

[Munjibunga]

It is a simple question of time. It takes roughly two times as long to build a Presentation (and three times as long to build a Hybrid) as it does to make something like a Monarch Deluxe 4.

The wood selection process is more extensive and more difficult because the pieces involved are so large and rare, the hand carved top alone takes Vinny the better part of a week to do and then every aspect of carving, sanding, spraying, etc. takes a lot longer because of its size...

So it is really more a question of properly pricing the opportunity cost of building one. Our build schedule is booked out one year for Custom Instruments. So, if we need to use several build slots for a Presentation rather than building 2-3 other instruments in the same time, the instrument needs to be priced accordingly.

Finally, the majority of what you are paying for in a Fodera is actually labor cost. Yes, we use the very best materials, hardware, electronics, etc., but at the end of the day the majority of the cost of the instruments still come down to the cost of labor...

I hope that this makes sense.

Regards,

Jason

Labor is the greatest cost in virtually all companies (as you know, Jason). The pricing at Fodera is what you'd expect if the luthiers and support staff are paid realistic wages with benefits, while leaving some profit for the shareholders. As Jason has said, many luthiers grossly underpay themselves and, the way I see it, basses from those manufacturers are great bargains assuming they do quality work. Fodera's prices, while high, are worth it. You don't have to feel bad about their employees being on beans and weenies, too.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Correct. And, yes, it is harder to do an Elite solid top on a YY than doing the YY top on a Deluxe.

J

I think it more likely is that the YYD is essentially a "signature" instrument, and the original was a dovetail.

 

[Damian Coccio]

Since we are on the subject of labor, just curious how much of the non presentation fodera bass construction is still hand carved vs cnc cut these days? This has probably already been addressed, but please humor me.

And I should add that I see advantages to both approaches.

 

[nostatic]

Since we are on the subject of labor, just curious how much of the non presentation fodera bass construction is still hand carved vs cnc cut these days? This has probably already been addressed, but please humor me.

And I should add that I see advantages to both approaches.

I believe the only CNC work is associated with the butterflies.

 

[jumbodbassman]

up to Jason and family hand picking them for a match.....

the pleck could probably fall into that category on a very broad sense. The rest is hand carved. By Vinny and Vlad and ????

 

[fivestringdan]

As far as I know Vinny still carves the basses. Or he poses for pictures pretending to carve?..lol

I also have a bass made on a CNC and honestly I don't see a difference in the quality. I believe the final sanding and finish add more to the presentation rather then how the wood was rough cut. CNC vs table saw imo.

On a side note the carving for the heel on the back of my instrument is absolutely perfect. I have looked at it so many time trying to find any deviation in the curve, depth, angle..whatever. Total perfection from a master luthier. Just elegant don't you think?

Since we are on the subject of labor, just curious how much of the non presentation fodera bass construction is still hand carved vs cnc cut these days? This has probably already been addressed, but please humor me.

And I should add that I see advantages to both approaches.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

I know.

But just to make sure we're on the same page... it was also not at all my intent to imply you suggested they were lying.

Just FYI, lying and having a price with a large profit margin built-in due to supply/demand valuation, are not at all the same thing.

Remember, pricing is based on what the market will bear... NOT (at least strictly) what something costs to make.

It's all good.

totally. and you're right on the money. clearly Fodera has to have a profit margin, so I was curious how much of that is taken into account with an instrument like a Presentation when it's pretty much "all in". It's a brilliant market strategy even if there really WASN'T that much of a difference between that and any other 36" Imperial 6. Obviously there is, but to claim a creme of the crop product that says "it doesn't get any better than this" will always attract those with the money for it. Hell, it's attracting me right now and I'm nowhere close to being able to afford one!