Fodera Club Part XX

[TRichardsbass]

I would like to debunk the CNC should make it cheaper mentality. Using a CNC is about consistency, not labor savings. Yes, when making nuts, bolts screws that make thousands of items a day you can save labor in that you only need one guy three shifts. however it is only optimum for non-batch processes. And it still requires set up time.

As far as the CNC and luthier grade custom guitars, while they are amazing machines they still can only do what is called "near net shape". And it is a batch process. You are making at best very short runs (1-3 pieces) because no two are exactly alike. So you spend time setting up the CNC for at best say up to 10 pieces. takes time.

Then you let the machine do its magic. then you take the pieces out and the rest goes by hand.

After the router and drilling ops are done you still have sanding to do. A CNC only does the normally repetitive stuff that you can pay any guy off the street to do. So while there is a savings in labor it is not what you would think.

Spector, Tobias (MTD), dingwall and many others use CNC for shaping bodies and doing early neck work. But with any instrument most of the labor is in the sanding, shaving and detail work. That is not to say you can't do it all with machines, but luthier grade instruments are not. Hell, Phil Kubicki is legendary for the necks he made and he used a series of milling machines that would be the equivalent of today's CNC. He still did an enormous amount of fine shaping and tuning. And his necks weren't cheap.

So while there is some efficiency in using a CNC, in small batches it isn't the savings you think and it really is more about consistency in near net shaping over the same manual hand processes.

While I never agreed with Ed Roman on a lot of things his discussion of them here is interesting: http://www.edroman.com/rants/cncmachines.htm

Note what he says, a CNC can't do the matching, the material selection, the wood acoustic choice, it can only cut consistently. Which is not where most of the cost of a custom instrument is. It is in the detail work and human touch.

Having worked with and known some of the legendary custom builders the point made a few posts ago is actually more true then you think. Many luthiers have more creative talent then business sense and do underpay themselves. Note that the Rick Turner's of the world are not millionaires, and that most luthiers don't get real money until they sell their companies.

 

[cfsporn]

It is a simple question of time. It takes roughly two times as long to build a Presentation (and three times as long to build a Hybrid) as it does to make something like a Monarch Deluxe 4.

The wood selection process is more extensive and more difficult because the pieces involved are so large and rare, the hand carved top alone takes Vinny the better part of a week to do and then every aspect of carving, sanding, spraying, etc. takes a lot longer because of its size...

So it is really more a question of properly pricing the opportunity cost of building one. Our build schedule is booked out one year for Custom Instruments. So, if we need to use several build slots for a Presentation rather than building 2-3 other instruments in the same time, the instrument needs to be priced accordingly.

Finally, the majority of what you are paying for in a Fodera is actually labor cost. Yes, we use the very best materials, hardware, electronics, etc., but at the end of the day the majority of the cost of the instruments still come down to the cost of labor...

I hope that this makes sense.

Regards,

Jason

Very interesting, thank you! Also, a big thank you to everyone for not jumping down my throat. I have seen enough "Why are Foderas priced so high" threads end badly that I almost didn't risk it.

 

[cfsporn]

Of course, if you bought your Emperor II with a non-solid Flame Maple top, a "normal" FB and one Duncan with a plastic PUP cover you would be at $10,575.

Regards,

Jason

That means I would only have to sell one kidney instead of three! There is hope after all! Granted, I have grown to hate flame maple, but as long as it is the top, I don't have to see it!

 

[Vic]

I would like to debunk the CNC should make it cheaper mentality. Using a CNC is about consistency, not labor savings.

I disagree, but want to be clear about how...

Yes, it is (also) about labor savings, BUT, it does not mean "no" labor where there was some, and to your point, it also doesn't make the entire work no longer labor intensive.

But to be accurate, it definitely takes less time to set the machine up than it does to replicate its work, so it does actually reduce human labor, as well as at least somewhat, time to completion.

The other thing you have to factor back in, however, at least cost-wise, since ultimately we're talking about the cost of production here... is the one-time cost of the machine itself, and the one-time per model prototyping/programming. Then the cost to run the machine each time. Plus, they don't necessarily go blindingly fast, so while it does save some time, it's not by making it a small fraction of what it once was.

So at the end of the day, I definitely feel the biggest benefit is consistency, but, I would say it does ALSO reduce manufacturing/labor costs... even in small batches... just maybe less than some people might think, is all.

I'll leave the other comments in his article about machines not being able to do the matching/selection, etc out of this... that's just a silly "debunking" of some obviously foolish notion that doesn't need debunking... or a dignifying response of any kind IMHO.

 

[Baird6869]

I have seen enough "Why are Foderas priced so high" threads end badly that I almost didn't risk it.

+1.

I was waiting for someone to ask if an AJP is "worth 200x more than my perfectly giggable SX?"

In any case, the buyer of a AJ Presentation is likely a different buyer than someone like myself that is perfectly happy gigging a E5S and soon the be built Monarch 5 at rock, blues and funk cover gigs. I could be wrong, but I haven't seen a AJP played at a crappy bar for 80's rock covers. Would be cool to see though.

 

[Vic]

I was waiting for someone to ask if an AJP is "worth 200x more than my perfectly giggable SX?"

See my Rule #3 in this post.

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/fodera-club-part-xx-983001/index10.html#post14322742

 

[cfsporn]

I could be wrong, but I haven't seen a AJP played at a crappy bar for 80's rock covers. Would be cool to see though.

+1
Granted, that is coming from someone who didn't get a gig because the basses I brought (Spector NS-JH5 and Rickenbacker 4003FL) were "too fancy" for the band.:scowl:

I didn't consider that a missed opportunity as much as a bullet dodged. I have no interest in playing with people who demand oversight on my gear unless they are paying me or providing alternate gear.

 

[cfsporn]

+1.

I was waiting for someone to ask if an AJP is "worth 200x more than my perfectly giggable SX?"

If you have to ask that question, then the answer is no.

 

[Baird6869]

+1
Granted, that is coming from someone who didn't get a gig because the basses I brought (Spector NS-JH5 and Rickenbacker 4003FL) were "too fancy" for the band.:scowl:

Usually it is the other way around. Lots of good players lose gigs because of owning perceived "cheap" gear. That drives me nuts.

I agree with you though.... I wouldn't want to play with people that made a decision not to hire me due to my basses either too fancy OR too cheap.

 

[cfsporn]

Usually it is the other way around. Lots of good players lose gigs because of owning perceived "cheap" gear. That drives me nuts.

I agree with you though.... I wouldn't want to play with people that made a decision not to hire me due to my basses either too fancy OR too cheap.

Loosing a gig because of "cheap" gear can make some semblence of sense. If your bass craps out three times during the audition, then you probably aren't going to get the gig and rightfully so.

I personally think that the guitarist was afraid that my gear would make his MIM Strat look bad. Doesn't he know that nobody pays attention to the bassist?

 

[steubig]

Usually it is the other way around. Lots of good players lose gigs because of owning perceived "cheap" gear. That drives me nuts.

dunno dude, lost plenty of work because i don't have a 4-string fender.

people hear with their eyes.

oh well.

 

[TapyTap]

dunno dude, lost plenty of work because i don't have a 4-string fender.

That is just flat out ridiculous.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

dunno dude, lost plenty of work because i don't have a 4-string fender.

people hear with their eyes.

oh well.

This is a MAJOR thing affecting bassists in LA. I know this firsthand, as well as from some good friends who live in LA. Sounds ridiculous, but people will literally look right past you if your bass doesn't have 4 strings and say Fender on it....

My friends say to me, "Man, I'm so jealous you get to play a fodera in your bands!"....sad but true!

 

[Steveman]

That is just flat out ridiculous.

It is but it's reality. Music Business 101, the music business is just as much fashion as it is music and that includes the instruments we play. Every audition in NYC I have been asked "so do you play a Fender?" As bass players, I think we have the most BS stigmas no matter what genre we're in.

EXAMPLES
Do you play a Fender?
Electric bass is just a toy, play a real (upright) bass like a man
Why do you need more than 4-strings?
Playing fretless makes you a Jaco poser
Don't play a Fender, it makes you look like everyone else

 

[steubig]

i do live in l.a. . . .

i've known people to hire guys who have a p-bass and slap on oldies tunes rather than hire me with a fodera 6-string with flats who plays the parts.

i'm used to it by now.

 

[cfsporn]

Hopefully, my P basses of choice (P Elite II and Squier Mike Dirnt covered in MLP stickers that sounds like a Stingray) are radical enough that any producer would tell me to just use whatever I want...

 

[Vic]

The whole studio "do you have a Fender" thing is VERY real and even today still VERY common. Some of it is fairly well grounded in established proven recording knowledge and not risking a recording or spending expensive recording time on the unknown, or an engineer's inability to extract as good of a tone from a non-Fender vs a Fender, and some of it is just plain old ignorance and die-hard narrow-mindedness. But regardless... it's a reality, and if you want to make the biz your profession, you have to have ALL the tools you'll be required to have... regardless of what tools you feel best about.

 

[Just Thumpin']

We actually took delivery of our first CNC machine in the summer of 2010 and our second last year in early 2012. The first is what people typically associate with a CNC machine in guitar manufacture -- one that is set up to do repetitive tasks like cutting the basic shape of body blanks and necks.

The second is the Plek machine which we have set up to do fret work and some leveling of FB's. Actually, the butterflies are NOT cut out by CNC -- at least not by us. We have the pieces of the butterflies cut for us y our shell supplier and then each needs to be hand-matched (mostly by my wife these days) so that they look like all four wings are from the same butterfly.

We have chosen to use our CNC's to replace some of the mundane, basic and repetitive tasks that very skilled luthiers like Vinny and Vadym used to have to take their time doing that added no value to the final instrument. Vinny has cut out the shape of a Monarch 4 many hundreds of times in his life and doing so again adds nothing to the final instrument when a machine can do the initial cuts.

Obviously we have a staggering amount of permutations for possible shapes. 33", 34", 35", 36" scales, 16.5mm, 17.5mm and 19.0mm bridge spacing, 4-string, 5-string and 6-string, three different neck constructions, 10+ regularly used models...so right there we're at well over 360 permutations -- without even contemplating the nearly limitless set of customizations we allow (at no additional charge) for neck shapes, body shapes and thicknesses, etc. This makes it completely impractical to program a CNC for anything other than 20 or so most frequently requested shapes. The past four Monarchs that I have purchased (34" scale, 4-strings with 24 frets) have all had various parts of their shaping done on the CNC.

However, and what we believe is key, is where you decide to STOP using the CNC and employ real, highly-skilled labor. We use the CNC for rough carving and then leave plenty of latitude (i.e. extra wood) for the gang to finish the shaping so that the result is a very much handmade instrument. By way of example, every neck blank starts out as a rectangle. You can use the CNC to turn that rectangular piece of wood into something that resembles the final shape of a neck while still allowing the last, most critical work to be completely done by hand. Or, as some companies choose to do, you can cut every neck exactly the same, limit yourself to 5-10 models and become an assembly line. Same tool, very different ethos and results.

So, even the Standards which are all the same shape (within each model) have an incredible amount of hand time in them. Yes, we can allow the CNC to do the rough shaping of them to tighter tolerances than on some custom instruments because there is no customization allowed, but every instrument is still very much finished completely by hand.

As a perfectionist AND a guy who owns and plays Foderas from every era, the quality of the work coming out of the shop today is both at the highest and most consistent level it has ever been and in addition to better management of process, some of this has very much to do with the skilled hands being able to lavish all of their time and attention on what really matters.

Thus far has the venture into using CNC's saved a lot of time and money? Not that much really. What it has done is reduced the wear and tear on people's bodies and minds by not having to continually do things that machines are better at. It has also freed up enough of Vinny and Vadym's time that they are now actively able to teach and develop the next generation of exceptional luthiers so that we can continue on the path of ensuring that our grandchildren will have access to Foderas of the same quality that we presently have.

I hope that this all makes good sense.

Kindest regards,

Jason

Since we are on the subject of labor, just curious how much of the non presentation fodera bass construction is still hand carved vs cnc cut these days? This has probably already been addressed, but please humor me.

And I should add that I see advantages to both approaches.

 

[Mitchthebassplayer]

i do live in l.a. . . .

i've known people to hire guys who have a p-bass and slap on oldies tunes rather than hire me with a fodera 6-string with flats who plays the parts.

i'm used to it by now.

oh I was just quoting you to go on with the subject for those who don't face things like that where they live. I'm sure you see it all the time. It does have to do with an image thing, but there's some stigma out there that if you're not playing a Fender you're just not going to sound good. Funny part is, if they couldn't see which bass you were using and you said "oh I'm using the Fender!", they'd be super happy anyway and have no idea.

which is why I love NYC. anything and everything goes.

 

[cfsporn]

which is why I love NYC. anything and everything goes.

Phew!