Fodera Club Part XXV

[Baird6869]

FWIW, I prefer the aesthetic of the 2+3 headstock anyway. Maybe it's because it looks a little more balanced to have two big strings and three small ones? Dunno, but I like it.

The one I absolutely can't get used to, is the 3+2 or 3+3 where the B string goes outside the tuners. Definitely MHO on this, and no offense to those who like it, but it just looks really wonky to me.

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I'm with you on that. Just my personal preference, but the extended B headstock looks goofy to me. YMMV....

 

[Damian Coccio]

D tuner on the low B Cool! How ever we need soundclips

I did post up one youtube video, but it was in e to c tuning just as a quick test. I'll put a few clips of the slap tone in standard tuning up too.

 

[sanwin17]

FWIW, I prefer the aesthetic of the 2+3 headstock anyway. Maybe it's because it looks a little more balanced to have two big strings and three small ones? Dunno, but I like it.

The one I absolutely can't get used to, is the 3+2 or 3+3 where the B string goes outside the tuners. Definitely MHO on this, and no offense to those who like it, but it just looks really wonky to me.

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Hardly noticeable IMO. That said, I can't tell you how many times I've tuned the E string thinking it was the B.

 

[Just Thumpin']

AJ takes absolutely phenomenal care of his instruments -- dings are very few and far between.

In terms of the adjustment wheel...nothing wrong with them, it's just a different system and we are happy with what we have...

Regards,

Jason

I have a question for Jason about Anthony Jackson's basses after reading that he takes his new hybrid on the airplane with him in a gig bag.


When Anthony's Presentations come back into the shop, do they have various dings and wear, like a bass that's played every day and used a ton; or does he take immaculate care of his instruments and they are always clean and in fantastic condition? I'm just curious since he is such a monster player that travels a ton and probably has his bass in his hands as often as not.


Edit: I forgot, I have another question. Did you guys ever think about using an adjustment wheel on the Standard basses like Sadowsky and EBMM use?


Thanks!

Michael

 

[phishaholik]

AJ takes absolutely phenomenal care of his instruments -- dings are very few and far between.

In terms of the adjustment wheel...nothing wrong with them, it's just a different system and we are happy with what we have...

Regards,

Jason

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity.


Michael

 

[Just Thumpin']

I am not going to jump into the fray on that as a lot of folks feel very strongly about whether the extended-B has any merit or not. Obviously we believe there is something to it which is why we offer it. And, if it means anything Joey, Vinny and I would also personally opt for the extended-B on our own instruments if we were going with 33" scale...

Regards,

Jason

Btw: Jason is the only way to get the best performance on a 33" 6 string to go extended b headstock?

 

[Munjibunga]

There is a reason that we try to get folks to go with a 2+3 if they will be using a low-B. The more string that sits behind the nut, the more downforce there is at the nut and that generally makes for the best sounding B-string at a given scale length. We do 3+2 by request as long as the player knows the pros and cons...

For an instrument strung E-C, the difference is too negligible to notice.

J

Hmmmm ... it's my belief that the steeper the angle of the string behind the nut, the greater the downforce on the nut - it's vector math. The downforce is a function of the sine of the break angle times the string tension. The sine increases with the angle, and the string tension is the same regardless of its length beyond the nut. A 3+2 headstock creates a steeper angle than a 2+3, and a much steeper angle than an extended B.

 

[Munjibunga]

Not on an angled headstock imho. I don't know scientifically how much difference it makes, but I do know that my 2+3 b sounds amazing and when Jason tells me something I take it very seriously. Having room to wrap a b string properly is concretely scientifically quantifiable.


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Look at the picture on the left. The strings are not parallel to each other. The ones that go further out the headstock increase in distance from the plane of the headstock.

In reality though, and in my humble opinion, it's much ado about nothing. Any difference in tone and playability that might occur due to variation of this parameter will not be discernible in practical applications.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Ken, in an absolute sense...about string angle, you are right. That said, in terms of playing feel we have experienced this to be more complex. With a back-angled PH, it has been our experience that adding more string behind the nut has the effect of making the string feel more taught...even though the angle is nominally less steep. Sorry that my initial post was overly-simplified -- to the point of being wrong. LOL.

J

I think you have it backwards actually. A lot of string behind the nut would, in most cases, result in LESS downforce on the nut. The sharper the angle, the more downforce (all other things being equal). Same thing at the bridge.

This is why there are 'hold down trees and knobs' on many basses that have a long distance between the tuner and nut, etc.

 

[Just Thumpin']

Mike --

See my response to Ken's earlier post...you are correct on the math and the angle.

J

Hmmmm ... it's my belief that the steeper the angle of the string behind the nut, the greater the downforce on the nut - it's vector math. The downforce is a function of the sine of the break angle times the string tension. The sine increases with the angle, and the string tension is the same regardless of its length beyond the nut. A 3+2 headstock creates a steeper angle than a 2+3, and a much steeper angle than an extended B.

 

[Munjibunga]

Mike --

See my response to Ken's earlier post...you are correct on the math and the angle.

J

Mike Pope mentioned the longitudinal vibration (compression waves) of the string playing a role in its sound as a reason for the extended B string. I wonder how much damping occurs at the nut (and bridge).

 

[Damian Coccio]

Look at the picture on the left. The strings are not parallel to each other. The ones that go further out the headstock increase in distance from the plane of the headstock.

In reality though, and in my humble opinion, it's much ado about nothing. Any difference in tone and playability that might occur due to variation of this parameter will not be discernible in practical applications.

Agreed, we are in the fractional percent category here imho. I did mess up the photo though, the head stock is tilted on the one so it looks like the angle is slightly different relative to the other strings. I can assure you though that they are the same. All the strings on both basses have the same angle. Another thing to add in the equation is the break angle in the other axis. The extended b rules on that one .

 

[Damian Coccio]

And, if it means anything Joey, Vinny and I would also personally opt for the extended-B on our own instruments if we were going to 33" scale...



Regards,



Jason

Yes, it means everything. My six string spec is likely to have this with a 33" scale.

 

[Munjibunga]

Agreed, we are in the fractional percent category here imho. I did mess up the photo though, the head stock is tilted on the one so it looks like the angle is slightly different relative to the other strings. I can assure you though that they are the same. All the strings on both basses have the same angle. Another thing to add in the equation is the break angle in the other axis. The extended b rules on that one .

Fractional percent, exactly.

 

[Christian Houmann]

Yes, it means everything. My six string spec is likely to have this with a 33" scale.

Felix's bass is the only 33 scale 6 string that I have seen that don't have the extended B

 

[RLK]

I may be all wet on this, but here goes:

Down force aside, theoretically, the length of the “non-speaking” portion of a string could have some other interactive effects:

When you energize the main "speaking" portion of the string, the other portions of the string across the nut and saddles also vibrate (I’m calling it a “responding wave”).
The responding waves vibrate at a different frequency and amplitude than the speaking portion; so the oscillations of one portion of the string might affect the oscillations of the other portions (maybe causing damping, changes in resonance, etc.).

Imagine if the string extended 36” beyond the bridge or beyond the nut.
It seems there would be a dramatic difference in how the speaking length of string behaves.
(Intuitively, I speculate the extra length would make the string seem less taught, but more lively.)

I don’t know if any of this applies to the extra inches of “non-speaking” B string on Foderas, but it’s food for thought.

 

[Damian Coccio]

I may be all wet on this, but here goes:



Down force aside, theoretically, the length of the “non-speaking” portion of a string could have some other interactive effects:



When you energize the main "speaking" portion of the string, the other portions of the string across the nut and saddles also vibrate (I’m calling it a “responding wave&#148.

The responding waves vibrate at a different frequency and amplitude than the speaking portion; so the oscillations of one portion of the string might affect the oscillations of the other portions (maybe causing damping, changes in resonance, etc.).



Imagine if the string extended 36” beyond the bridge or beyond the nut.

It seems there would be a dramatic difference in how the speaking length of string behaves.

(Intuitively, I speculate the extra length would make the string seem less taught, but more lively.)



I don’t know if any of this applies to the extra inches of “non-speaking” B string on Foderas, but it’s food for thought.

Fairly easy theory to test by damping out the portion above the nut...

 

[Baird6869]

Jason was nice enough to send me a build pic tonight. My Monarch 5 Deluxe is looking awesome and will soon be heading into the paint booth.

I will post it hopefully tonight when I get home.....

Really getting excited that I will have my bass in my hands in a few weeks. Long year of waiting to say the least!!!!

 

[tomika]

You mean your bass wasn't supposed to be 42" scale?!?!

Uh-oh....

J

It's only 40" scale but good for wall demolition...

 

[pickles]

With the B string talk, it's not just about open B. That one note doesn't matter much, its the feel and tone of the entire string. I care a lot more about C through G. I can accept, but do not fully understand, that eliminating arcing and/or minor associated core twisting past the nut (or saddle) rather than a relatively strait pull could effect tone, feel, intonation ... I know it does with string through body unless you crimp at the saddle. And you cant crimp at the not since that would leave you unable to tune.

And 2+3 looks cool