If customers are not complaining, then it is not a problem. If they are, then Fodera might want to consider what I suggested.
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Fodera Imperial Elite 5-String Available!
- Thread starter Just Thumpin'
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If customers are not complaining, then it is not a problem. If they are, then Fodera might want to consider what I suggested.
ok sorry had to do one more for giggles...
Ok..... I get it now "OPTICS" do not exist *anywhere* in your thought process.
Carry on!
Thanks for the confirming post.
Again, gotta love this place.
Allow me to interject my thoughts. . . I see Brad's point, about practicality and efficiency with regard to modes of production and not simply building one bass at a time. There's a lot of glueing, setting, carving, etc... and it makes sense that these be done together for efficiency.
That said, it makes sense that they do this for custom orders together. I understand Kevin, your point with regard to Vinnie's artistry and attention to detail. As I say all this, make no mistake that I am one of Vinnie's biggest fans with regard to his art, and that he is a genuinely nice person - and he truly is an artist (literally, he paints, etc...). I've been told, for what it's worth, that he has nothing to do with the business side of things. Then again, the instruments bear his name - this will be more relevant after reading on. . .
But I would be livid if I'd been quoted 18 months (for example), had been waiting three years, and began to see "production" instruments going up for sale on the website assembled "as they go." I'd be particularly ticked if I heard rumors of 6 month build times for these instruments.
I think Ken's point here is that once you (as the luthier) quote an individual a certain build time, then you push it back, then you push it back again, ad nauseam. . . well, it seems that eventually you need to finish the order, to the exclusion of any subsequent ones.
Now, an anecdotal tale that happened to an individual whom I know better than anyone in the world. An order was placed for a certain Fodera bass and a delivery time was quoted of 18 months. This was in the year 2001, month of March. (It is important to understand that the order was paid in full in late 2002 in anticipation of the completion of said bass.) The spec's were confirmed, the only one left to determined was top wood. This was a custom order, an AJ Presentation, complete with carved top. Apart from that the rest was relatively straightforward, electronics, neck and body woods.
A year went by, then two. The choice for top was down to three pieces, and one was selected. Now, over the course of this period, many top woods had been requested, some of which (chestnut burl) were said to no longer be available - as in extinct, none left, what was built was all we've got - NOT "we have some more left, but they're reserved for other projects." A select piece of maple was chosen in early 2002. In late 2002 that particular piece of wood was nowhere to be found, when it was time to carve and assemble. No explanation.
Interestingly, several basses with chestnut tops began to turn up over in Japan, as well as a particular bass with a particular maple top.
In 2003 a visit was made to the shop to choose another top wood, at which time it was discovered that no progress had been made on said bass, i.e. there was no bass, only a neck blank and body wood. At this time, another top wood was chosen, and said bass was promised to be started immediately and completed by Christmas.
In February of 2004 no pictures could be produced and it was admitted that the bass had not been started at all. This began a long and arduous process of repeated phone calls, messages, e-mails, to get closure of one form or another, whether that meant some type of production instrument, or unspoken for custom. . .
You get the picture. It's no secret that tons of these basses go over to Japan, and it's no secret that they cost many more thousands of dollars over there. It's understandable that Fodera would want to concentrate its efforts on the Japanese market. Fine. . . but it needs to be made clear up front that this is the case, a REALISTIC timeframe must be given for delivery, and Fodera must INITIATE the communication on it if there is a hold up in production time.
I know of other individuals who have waited 4+ years for instruments from Fodera, and they were quoted a max time of 2 years. I know others still who watched as several custom orders were placed and completed while they waited for a very standard instrument. The objection here is partially the same as Ken's initial point, but there's also an issue of integrity. In my mind, it's not enough to merely build amazing instruments and quote delivery times on the presupposition that "everyone who orders knows he's going to wait longer anyway." That's unscrupulous in my estimation. Yes, people will still order Fodera's, some unaware of the discrepency in delivery times, other knowingly - sure, it's on them either way. But, that doesn't change Fodera's responsibility.
Kevin, congrats on that bass - it looks literally identical to a certain bass I once heard of that was never completed. I know it will be a monster.
I'm quite certain that 60 posts will have been made in the time it took me to write this, rendering mine obsolete and irrelevant. Sorry. . .
That said, it makes sense that they do this for custom orders together. I understand Kevin, your point with regard to Vinnie's artistry and attention to detail. As I say all this, make no mistake that I am one of Vinnie's biggest fans with regard to his art, and that he is a genuinely nice person - and he truly is an artist (literally, he paints, etc...). I've been told, for what it's worth, that he has nothing to do with the business side of things. Then again, the instruments bear his name - this will be more relevant after reading on. . .
But I would be livid if I'd been quoted 18 months (for example), had been waiting three years, and began to see "production" instruments going up for sale on the website assembled "as they go." I'd be particularly ticked if I heard rumors of 6 month build times for these instruments.
I think Ken's point here is that once you (as the luthier) quote an individual a certain build time, then you push it back, then you push it back again, ad nauseam. . . well, it seems that eventually you need to finish the order, to the exclusion of any subsequent ones.
Now, an anecdotal tale that happened to an individual whom I know better than anyone in the world. An order was placed for a certain Fodera bass and a delivery time was quoted of 18 months. This was in the year 2001, month of March. (It is important to understand that the order was paid in full in late 2002 in anticipation of the completion of said bass.) The spec's were confirmed, the only one left to determined was top wood. This was a custom order, an AJ Presentation, complete with carved top. Apart from that the rest was relatively straightforward, electronics, neck and body woods.
A year went by, then two. The choice for top was down to three pieces, and one was selected. Now, over the course of this period, many top woods had been requested, some of which (chestnut burl) were said to no longer be available - as in extinct, none left, what was built was all we've got - NOT "we have some more left, but they're reserved for other projects." A select piece of maple was chosen in early 2002. In late 2002 that particular piece of wood was nowhere to be found, when it was time to carve and assemble. No explanation.
Interestingly, several basses with chestnut tops began to turn up over in Japan, as well as a particular bass with a particular maple top.
In 2003 a visit was made to the shop to choose another top wood, at which time it was discovered that no progress had been made on said bass, i.e. there was no bass, only a neck blank and body wood. At this time, another top wood was chosen, and said bass was promised to be started immediately and completed by Christmas.
In February of 2004 no pictures could be produced and it was admitted that the bass had not been started at all. This began a long and arduous process of repeated phone calls, messages, e-mails, to get closure of one form or another, whether that meant some type of production instrument, or unspoken for custom. . .
You get the picture. It's no secret that tons of these basses go over to Japan, and it's no secret that they cost many more thousands of dollars over there. It's understandable that Fodera would want to concentrate its efforts on the Japanese market. Fine. . . but it needs to be made clear up front that this is the case, a REALISTIC timeframe must be given for delivery, and Fodera must INITIATE the communication on it if there is a hold up in production time.
I know of other individuals who have waited 4+ years for instruments from Fodera, and they were quoted a max time of 2 years. I know others still who watched as several custom orders were placed and completed while they waited for a very standard instrument. The objection here is partially the same as Ken's initial point, but there's also an issue of integrity. In my mind, it's not enough to merely build amazing instruments and quote delivery times on the presupposition that "everyone who orders knows he's going to wait longer anyway." That's unscrupulous in my estimation. Yes, people will still order Fodera's, some unaware of the discrepency in delivery times, other knowingly - sure, it's on them either way. But, that doesn't change Fodera's responsibility.
Kevin, congrats on that bass - it looks literally identical to a certain bass I once heard of that was never completed. I know it will be a monster.
I'm quite certain that 60 posts will have been made in the time it took me to write this, rendering mine obsolete and irrelevant. Sorry. . .
And if both?
Your answer really doesn't address my premise. The problems arise, like most of this thread, when you actually consider the details.
Spending Fodera money without doing research is just not very bright. Doing research on any builder can prepare you in advance (I know that's redundant
). If a handful of customers complains (just an example), not allowing others to queue up could send those potential customers to another builder or not ordering an instrument at all.I'm probably the only one who sees that.
Excellent post, Gruuv. It sounds like throwing a few production basses into the mix isn't the actual problem.
BTW unless you're getting a serious discount and have some drop dead penalties in place... never pay in full prior to completion, regardless of builder. IME of course.
BTW unless you're getting a serious discount and have some drop dead penalties in place... never pay in full prior to completion, regardless of builder. IME of course.
i gotta say, that irked me too. "sorry joe, no more chestnut." then all of a sudden theres basses completed in like 2004 with chestnut tops. mine was ordered in 2001 as well. not only that, i ordered a side mount jack because ive seen numerous foderas that develop hairline cracks at the jack, and it showed up with a top mount anyway. then, i order duncan duals only to find out 6 years later thanks to carey nordstrand that they werent duncans at all but aeros.
Thanks, and exactly! As Ken stated, Sadowsky does it very successfully, albeit with a different (some would argue simpler) production process. I think probably the quoted times, combined with, in some cases anyway, the less than consistent/truthful communication that is the root of this. As stated, people will knowingly wait - I'm sure if they said upfront, "You're realistically looking at 2-3 years to wait for this bass," it would only turn away a handful of people, who might be satisfied with the "production" basses. The problem is getting everything under control first.
BTW unless you're getting a serious discount and have some drop dead penalties in place... never pay in full prior to completion, regardless of builder. IME of course.
[/QUOTE]No doubt!!!
Excellent post, Gruuv. It sounds like throwing a few production basses into the mix isn't the actual problem.
BTW unless you're getting a serious discount and have some drop dead penalties in place... never pay in full prior to completion, regardless of builder. IME of course.
Well Brad, you do know how to grind an argument. I guess we will just have to disagree (again!). Again, the absolute wait time is not the issue IMO. It is, as Gruuv also points out, the idea of poor communication, GROSSLY overpromised delivery dates, and at least for me, a very strange way to spend your time 'getting caught up' by... making spec basses
If nothing else, it looks really bad to the customer (I know this for a fact
).If as you hypothesize, this isn't a central causal issue in the continued poor execution of the delivery of paid for and promised instruments, it at least takes away from time that could be spent 'fixing the issue' (even if that's just meeting and strategy time). As Gruuv points out, it points to IMO a 'lack of integrity', at least on the face of it.
I would think you would at least recognize that the issue of building non-custom basses when custom clients are YEARS behind in delivery seems, well, just not quite right.
Edit: Gruuv's post right above mine summarizes my feelings on this nicely!
Hey Joe, I remembered your situation as well, but I didn't want to bring it up specifically.
It seems like either way they're going to lose business if things continue on the current track. Trust me, it would be better to lose business or cut back business (custom orders) on their own terms and maintain a smaller but happier customer base.
Funny, it feels like I'm giving my opinion just like anyone else... again.
Again, the absolute wait time is not the issue IMO. It is, as Gruuv also points out, the idea of poor communication, GROSSLY overpromised delivery dates, and at least for me, a very strange way to spend your time 'getting caught up' by... making spec basses
If nothing else, it looks really bad to the customer (I know this for a fact
If as you say, this isn't a causal issue in the continued poor execution of the delivery of paid for and promised instruments, it at least takes away from time that could be spent 'fixing the issue' (even if that's just meeting and strategy time).
I would think you would at least recognize that the issue of building non-custom basses when custom clients are YEARS behind in delivery seems, well, just not quite right.
I've actual read threads about Fodera customers, including Joe's over the years so pretending to be shocked now would be disengenuous.
This is a thread about an Essence bass. I still don't believe that building the Essence basses is the PROBLEM. That has been my position all along and it still is. Gruuv's (and Joe's) posts point out what I'd consider much bigger issues. You do see the Essence as far more of an issue than I do. If that's me grinding the argument, so be it. I suppose if I instead agreed with you everything would be okay... but I don't.
BTW unless you're getting a serious discount and have some drop dead penalties in place... never pay in full prior to completion, regardless of builder. IME of course.
100% correct!! Never do this, NEVER.
It seems like either way they're going to loose business if things continue on the current track. Trust me, it would be better to lose business or cut back business (custom orders) on their own terms and maintain a smaller but happier customer base.
If we're off the personal shot crap I'll offer this: that is no doubt true with your business model. OTOH I'd have to seriously wonder, especially with the competition coming up just how savvy a business decision it would be for Fodera?
I know that in custom instrument building some (not all) people actually like that it takes a long period of time... it gives them more time to get funds together. I know Kevin Brubaker has built basses/guitars so quickly that people weren't prepared to pay for them because they were done "too soon". Imagine that.
Funny, it feels like I'm giving my opinion just like anyone else... again.
I've actual read threads about Fodera customers, including Joe's over the years so pretending to be shocked now would be disengenuous.
This is a thread about an Essence bass. I still don't believe that building the Essence basses is the PROBLEM. That has been my position all along and it still is. Gruuv's (and Joe's) posts point out what I'd consider much bigger issues. You do see the Essence as far more of an issue than I do. If that's me grinding the argument, so be it. I suppose if I instead agreed with you everything would be okay... but I don't.
+1.. I'm focusing on the 'ESSENCE', because that is what the thread is about
I didn't really want to rehash all the other stuff, which is of course, more to the root cause of these issues. The Essence thing was more like shoving a 'stick in the eye' of the forever waiting custom customer, and it just really struck me as uncool on a variety of different levels.
Funny, it feels like I'm giving my opinion just like anyone else... again.
I've actual read threads about Fodera customers, including Joe's over the years so pretending to be shocked now would be disengenuous.
This is a thread about an Essence bass. I still don't believe that building the Essence basses is the PROBLEM. That has been my position all along and it still is. Gruuv's (and Joe's) posts point out what I'd consider much bigger issues. You do see the Essence as far more of an issue than I do. If that's me grinding the argument, so be it. I suppose if I instead agreed with you everything would be okay... but I don't.
i actually got mine in the quoted time (it took like 11 months i think). and at the time i hadnt heard any stories like mine or Eric's. we would all geek out pretty hard over at the yahoo fodera club on all these different pictures of basses, but all stories were positive. yeah, orders were taking a few months longer, but it wasnt years at the time. and the guys at the shop were always super gracious. one bass i sent in for pickup covers and they leveled the frets and updated the pre for free. just recently, joey sent me the correct pickups for the aeros 7 years later (although i think i was entitled to that one
)now though, we have stories of dudes waiting for years and years while spec basses are being built and others are jumping ahead in line. or that certified pre owned deal that presumably bendy burned some guy on. im glad i got mine when i did because the weirdness thats coming out these days might have made me go in another direction.
+1.. I'm focusing on the 'ESSENCE', because that is what the thread is about
No offense, it just looked like an opportunity to complain about something that isn't the "real problem"... just a minor offshoot.
While that wasn't your intent, you know how TB works. You walk in with a can opener and suddenly the place is crawling with worms
I did find it amusing that some found my participation in this thread to be problematic and even inferred "troll" for not jumping on something I felt was a distraction at best. Apparently "I" am arguing. Alone as usual.
I'm used to it, I know that's how things work. Your comment about me grinding an argument... because you also stand up for your position, with lots of posts, I guess I'm at a loss as to how you aren't at least doing the same? And it's a tangent I didn't even start.
I don't know why a few people always seem to take things to that level. As if it helps the discussion.
i actually got mine in the quoted time (it took like 11 months i think). and at the time i hadnt heard any stories like mine or Eric's. we would all geek out pretty hard over at the yahoo fodera club on all these different pictures of basses, but all stories were positive. yeah, orders were taking a few months longer, but it wasnt years at the time. and the guys at the shop were always super gracious. one bass i sent in for pickup covers and they leveled the frets and updated the pre for free. just recently, joey sent me the correct pickups for the aeros 7 years later (although i think i was entitled to that one
now though, we have stories of dudes waiting for years and years while spec basses are being built and others are jumping ahead in line. or that certified pre owned deal that presumably bendy burned some guy on. im glad i got mine when i did because the weirdness thats coming out these days might have made me go in another direction.
No offense, it just looked like an opportunity to complain about something that isn't the "real problem"... just a minor offshoot.
While that wasn't your intent, you know how TB works. You walk in with a can opener and suddenly the place is crawling with worms
I did find it amusing that some found my participation in this thread to be problematic and even inferred "troll" for not jumping on something I felt was a distraction at best. Apparently "I" am arguing. Alone as usual.
I'm used to it, I know that's how things work. Your comment about me grinding an argument... because you also stand up for your position, with lots of posts, I guess I'm at a loss as to how you aren't at least doing the same? And it's a tangent I didn't even start.
I don't know why a few people always seem to take things to that level. As if it helps the discussion.
Hey, I enjoy our discussions. I guess the difference between 'grinding' an argument to me and just having a 'discussion of opinions' is to at least make it clear that you understand where your 'opponent' is coming from. Most of these issues do not have a 'I'm totally right and you are totally wrong' conclusion IMO and IME.
I understand what you are saying, that the Essence isn't the root cause of the issue. I would think (unless I'm a total idiot.. which may be the case
) that you could at least indicate that you understand my side of the issue, and that there is at least a little, tinsee-weensee' bit of logic to it.Of course, if you totally disagree with 100% of what I say, then I guess we would both just be stuck with 'grinding' versus each bending a bit with new information and further explanation of each side.
I guess it's the difference between talking and shouting. I try not to shout (but of course, I'm human and 'dig in' also)
IMO... as you know, I LOVE the dialectic.
K
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