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Forgiveness = Freedom

#61
MatticusMania said:
Can you elaborate on that? And in what way does that apply to vengeance/forgiveness?
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We've evolved psychologically to struggle with the paradox of viewing other humans as both friend and foe. Other humans are a threat, potentially a deadly one, yet we also recognize them as our closest allies in survival on this planet.

Forgiveness is a peacekeeping activity, typically an act by a lower ranking member of the social order. I liken it to the omega wolves rolling onto their backs to maintain morale in the pack, when the alphas challenge them. It's a trust display.

You can get all the omegas you want to play cowboys and Indians with you, but only so long as they recognize that they're omegas. If they attempt to invert the social order, you must remind them of their ranking: vengeance.
MatticusMania said:
And the snake who swallows his own tail is immortal.
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Yeah, it's kinda paradoxical, no man is an island, but we all want as much ocean front property as we can steal.
carlthegroover said:
Yep, but don't forget that many people leave loved ones behind. If you happen to kill someone who has loved ones, you might find yourself killed if one of them is also vindictive.
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If you're fearing reprisal, you're either lacking in juice or insufficient with your vengeance levels.
carlthegroover said:
Perhaps I wouldn't have the juice largely because I wouldn't care to pay back if the return is not enough, just like any investment. That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to hurt or even kill someone who threatens my body, possessions or loved ones. That's self-defense, though, very different in nature and action to vengeance. I don't believe in turning the other cheek. But I don't believe in being the aggressor either.
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Self-defense is a euphemism, it's just instant vengeance.
handofseven said:
I think you're wrong.

The definition of vengeance makes no mention of satisfaction, though in ages past, people used the word in context of declaring their intention to obtain their due.

I believe in most cases, people who have achieved vengeance, typically describe their feelings afterward as being dissappointed, that they expected to feel more. They did not achieve the closure they were looking for.

I believe you if you say you are the type of person who makes good on their threats, rattlesnake and all, but I don't believe you when you say proper vengeance achieves satisfaction. Vengeance by definition does not require it.
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For the record I've never burned anyone's crops or smote someone's first born heir. I'm not here trying to play an internet tough guy, just discussing, philosophically.

The definition of satisfaction being a testimony of achievement of vengeance is mine. It's a compulsion, and ignoring it will not satisfy either. Regrets from vengeance are a side effect from the empathetic parts of the human mind. They're an asset to social harmony, but can be counterproductive to individual achievement, two frequently opposed objectives. Vengeance should be very satisfying to individual goals, assuming it was justified by social rank (i.e. you're not barking up the food chain) even if there are pangs of sympathy for the comeuppance you've delivered.
 
#62
If someone makes it onto my "hate" list, no, I don't forgive them - I pretend they don't exist at all and will look right through them if I happen to see them. They have become less than nothing to me.

And I really don't care if others like that or not - but I will not be used, walked on, insulted or abused. Life might be too short to hate, but it's also too short to allow those certain people to think their actions won't have consequences, even if those consequences might just be me ignoring their very existence until the day they die.
 
#65
This song has hit home with me in a big way.

Rush - "Wish Them Well"

All that you can do is wish them well
All that you can do is wish them well

Spirits turned bitter by the poison of envy
Always angry and dissatisfied
Even the lost ones, the frightened and mean ones
Even the ones with a devil inside

Thank your stars you're not that way
Turn your back and walk away
Don't even pause and ask them why
Turn around and say goodbye

All that you can do is wish them well
All that you can do is wish them well

People who judge without a measure of mercy
All the victims who will never learn
Even the lost ones, you can only give up on
Even the ones who make you burn

Thank your stars you're not that way
Turn your back and walk away

Don't even pause and ask them why
Turn around and say goodbye

The ones who've done you wrong
The ones who pretended to be so strong
The grudges you've held for so long
It's not worth singing that same sad song

Thank your stars you're not that way
Turn your back and walk away
Don't even pause and ask them why
Turn around and say goodbye

All that you can do is wish them well
All that you can do is wish them well
All that you can do is wish them well

Even though you're going through hell
Just keep on going
Let the demons dwell

Just wish them well
 
#68
Unrepresented said:
If you're fearing reprisal, you're either lacking in juice or insufficient with your vengeance levels.
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I never said anything about a fear. If you have the forethought of committing revenge, you also must accept all the consequences, it is all. If you fear not punishment, incarceration or retribution, go right ahead. I personally wouldn't join you as it clashes with my values.

Unrepresented said:
Self-defense is a euphemism, it's just instant vengeance.
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I disagree. Vengeance to me always requires forethought, lest it becomes crime of passion and it's no longer vengeance. Thus "instant vengeance" is an oxymoron unless someone is capable of "instant forethought" and "instant action based on such forethought"... at the same time.

In self-defense, while some forethought is permitted, it is not required and, in some cases impossible to formulate due to the quick nature of the threat that produces such reaction.
 
#69
MatticusMania said:
Love in the personal sense is quite different than, say, a love for mankind.
I can still have love for someone who has wronged me, not in the personal sense, but more in the matter that I wish them well being without giving them the benefit of my physical presence.
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To me it is love regardless: precious, personal, limited. And all love, in my opinion, should be earned. Someone who really wronged me would have to work extra hard to earn such love back. But I'm not vindictive either and I wouldn't wish that person harm, I would just forget as if he/she never existed. And I have.

To each their own, though. It is somewhat admirable you would still wish well being to someone who wrong you, though. I just can't do that, it's not my style.
 
#74
jmattbassplaya said:
Yep. I avoid these threads for that reason.

I feel like you guys are worrying so much about the most miniscule of details that you're missing out on the big picture. But YMMV.
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Eric Perry said:
Agreed.
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Yup. It's simply about not holding on to hurt against someone who's hurt you so that you can be free instead of allowing that person's actions haunt your thoughts for the rest of your life.
 
#78
MJ5150 said:
All the philosiphizers philosiphizing.

-Mike
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jmattbassplaya said:
Yep. I avoid these threads for that reason.

I feel like you guys are worrying so much about the most miniscule of details that you're missing out on the big picture. But YMMV.
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It is fun to do so occasionally. Nowadays I philosophize a lot less often, and when I do I tend to prefer more practical issues with more appliable answers. So it's all good. :cool:
 

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