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Forgiveness = Freedom

#41
slobake said:
Did you every notice how much work it takes to stay angry and or resentful with someone? I know when I get in that space I am making myself a prisoner to that person. Everything I do when they are around is in response to them. The more people that are on my you-know-what list the more work it is.
On the other hand when someone is acting that way towards me it is so great when I can not react and just keep treating them with love and respect. Sometimes they realize they have no power of me and just give it up.
Did you ever re-live something that happened some time ago and get worked up all over again? I hate it when I do that. I think “Man, I thought I was done with this? I guess I need to forgive them again.” Eventually I realize that it is nothing more than a bad memory.
Forgiveness = Freedom IMHOP.
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I think your thoughts are quite wise,and I agree that such emotions take a huge toll out of their bearers. However, I would not give love to someone who wronged me badly, especially someone not important in my life. He/she probably wouldn't appreciate nor deserve it. I would only forgive and forget, that's my own goal. And I would only respect their basic human rights.

I'm not saying my love is that precious for anyone else, but for me it is, and in short supply too. My life has taught me I should surround myself with positive, constructive, proactive people who would reciprocate my love. The destructive/ highly immoral can go about their business, we won't miss each other anyways.
 
#42
Unrepresented said:
Forgiving is a concession that you're too weak to achieve the vengeance you ache for.
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Frankly, who can claim such right? If you wrong a person in revenge, wouldn't that person have grounds to be vindictive themselves? That would bring about a vicious cycle that will probably leave both of you weary or even dead.

Vengeance is tempting, but a waste of time and work in my book.
 
#45
I'm not 100% sure that holding a grudge or staying angry at some one is such a drain on your energy. In fact, as I look at it, it's an "easy way" out. It's often forgiveness that can challenge you and expend your energy.
My personal outlook on it is that the reward in this does not have so much to do with "energy" or "freedom" but rather has a lot to do with being a better person.
I don't have any magic switch in my psyche that I can flip into an instant "forgive mode". "Click", I'm no longer mad in any way. For me, to forgive someone who really really wronged you, takes work and effort. In fact, it's EASIER to stay mad. The reward in it for me is knowing that I have the strength to be better than whatever particular situation arose in dealing with this person. That's all there is to it. "I'm better than that". It sounds a little flighty maybe but it's worked well for me. :)
 
#46
I think what I call forgiveness some people are calling something else. It could be just letting go of something. There are some people that I don't trust. There are others that I wouldn't choose to spend time with if I had a choice. That is not unforgiving but wisdom. I have other friends that I have been angry with in the past and we are now better friends than ever. Sometimes an honest discussion actually leads me closer to people.
 
#47
carlthegroover said:
Frankly, who can claim such right? If you wrong a person in revenge, wouldn't that person have grounds to be vindictive themselves? That would bring about a vicious cycle that will probably leave both of you weary or even dead.
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He who dies second, laughs best.
carlthegroover said:
Vengeance is tempting, but a waste of time and work in my book.
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Unfulfilled or underfulfilled vengeance yes. Legit, fire and brimstone, destroying their crops and their birthright heir vengeance can really hit the spot though if you've got the juice to make it happen.
 
#49
MJ5150 said:
Harboring resentment is like drinking poison and hoping the other person dies.

-Mike
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Exactly. I like the Buddha quote, essentially the same meaning as what you posted here:
"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned."

carlthegroover said:
I'm not saying my love is that precious for anyone else, but for me it is, and in short supply too. My life has taught me I should surround myself with positive, constructive, proactive people who would reciprocate my love. The destructive/ highly immoral can go about their business, we won't miss each other anyways.
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Love in the personal sense is quite different than, say, a love for mankind.
I can still have love for someone who has wronged me, not in the personal sense, but more in the matter that I wish them well being without giving them the benefit of my physical presence.

carlthegroover said:
Frankly, who can claim such right? If you wrong a person in revenge, wouldn't that person have grounds to be vindictive themselves? That would bring about a vicious cycle that will probably leave both of you weary or even dead.

Vengeance is tempting, but a waste of time and work in my book.
Click to expand...

An eye for an eye and the whole world goes blind.

Relic said:
I'm not 100% sure that holding a grudge or staying angry at some one is such a drain on your energy. In fact, as I look at it, it's an "easy way" out. It's often forgiveness that can challenge you and expend your energy.
My personal outlook on it is that the reward in this does not have so much to do with "energy" or "freedom" but rather has a lot to do with being a better person.
I don't have any magic switch in my psyche that I can flip into an instant "forgive mode". "Click", I'm no longer mad in any way. For me, to forgive someone who really really wronged you, takes work and effort. In fact, it's EASIER to stay mad. The reward in it for me is knowing that I have the strength to be better than whatever particular situation arose in dealing with this person. That's all there is to it. "I'm better than that". It sounds a little flighty maybe but it's worked well for me. :)
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Well said. But I think you might be looking at the "expend energy" part in the wrong light.
It is easier to hold a grudge or stay mad than it is to forgive. Though, once that initial energy is spent to forgive its over with, and a stronger character/sense of self is the reward. As you said, youre better than that.
But where the energy is spent, repeatedly, is in harboring that resentment.
Say, anytime that person crosses your path immediately your mind goes to that place where you were wronged; sometimes they dont even have to be present, but the mere mention of their name could do it. There is your energy being spent on negativity, whereas the person who has forgiven the wrongdoer will expend no energy, as theyve already let go of those thoughts.

Unrepresented said:
He who dies second, laughs best.
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And alone.
 
#50
Nice quote from the Buddha, I like that one too.

I don't see the ROI on being mad at people. There are too many things to be happy about to sit around and be pissed off at someone. Acknowledge and move on.

-Mike
 
#53
So, so you think you can tell
Heaven from Hell
Blue skies from pain
Can you tell a green field
From a cold steel rail?

A smile from a veil?
Do you think you can tell?
Did they get you to trade
Your heroes for ghosts?
Hot ashes for trees?
Hot air for a cool breeze?

Cold comfort for change?
And did you exchange
A walk on part in a war
For a lead role in a cage?


Pink Floyd "Wish You Were Hear"
 
#55
Unrepresented said:
He who dies second, laughs best.

Unfulfilled or underfulfilled vengeance yes. Legit, fire and brimstone, destroying their crops and their birthright heir vengeance can really hit the spot though if you've got the juice to make it happen.
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“Messin with me, is like wearing cheese underwear down rat alley.
Ollie Chandler
 
#56
MatticusMania said:
Sure, but playing cowboys and indians is a lot less fun without someone to shoot your cap gun at.
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Humans struggle with the desire for friends and the fear of foes. Perception of independent viability is what shifts the balance.
handofseven said:
Meh. I don't believe it. I've not once, ever, felt good about exacting vengeance... Unless it was in the form of a practical joke. Now those are satisfying. :D
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If it wasn't satisfying, it wasn't vengeance.
slobake said:
“Messin with me, is like wearing cheese underwear down rat alley.
Ollie Chandler
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It's all about following through with implied or overt threats. It makes the world go 'round. A rattlesnake who never bites just makes silly sounding noises.
 
#57
Unrepresented said:
Humans struggle with the desire for friends and the fear of foes. Perception of independent viability is what shifts the balance.
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Can you elaborate on that? And in what way does that apply to vengeance/forgiveness?

Unrepresented said:
A rattlesnake who never bites just makes silly sounding noises.
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And the snake who swallows his own tail is immortal.
 
#58
Unrepresented said:
He who dies second, laughs best.
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Yep, but don't forget that many people leave loved ones behind. If you happen to kill someone who has loved ones, you might find yourself killed if one of them is also vindictive.

Unrepresented said:
Unfulfilled or underfulfilled vengeance yes. Legit, fire and brimstone, destroying their crops and their birthright heir vengeance can really hit the spot though if you've got the juice to make it happen.
Click to expand...

Perhaps I wouldn't have the juice largely because I wouldn't care to pay back if the return is not enough, just like any investment. That being said, I wouldn't hesitate to hurt or even kill someone who threatens my body, possessions or loved ones. That's self-defense, though, very different in nature and action to vengeance. I don't believe in turning the other cheek. But I don't believe in being the aggressor either.
 
#59
Unrepresented said:
If it wasn't satisfying, it wasn't vengeance.
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I think you're wrong.

The definition of vengeance makes no mention of satisfaction, though in ages past, people used the word in context of declaring their intention to obtain their due.

I believe in most cases, people who have achieved vengeance, typically describe their feelings afterward as being dissappointed, that they expected to feel more. They did not achieve the closure they were looking for.

I believe you if you say you are the type of person who makes good on their threats, rattlesnake and all, but I don't believe you when you say proper vengeance achieves satisfaction. Vengeance by definition does not require it.
 

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