Forgiveness = Freedom

[Norwegian Bass]

We've evolved psychologically to struggle with the paradox of viewing other humans as both friend and foe. Other humans are a threat, potentially a deadly one, yet we also recognize them as our closest allies in survival on this planet.

Forgiveness is a peacekeeping activity, typically an act by a lower ranking member of the social order. I liken it to the omega wolves rolling onto their backs to maintain morale in the pack, when the alphas challenge them. It's a trust display.

You can get all the omegas you want to play cowboys and Indians with you, but only so long as they recognize that they're omegas. If they attempt to invert the social order, you must remind them of their ranking: vengeance.

Yeah, it's kinda paradoxical, no man is an island, but we all want as much ocean front property as we can steal.

If you're fearing reprisal, you're either lacking in juice or insufficient with your vengeance levels.

Self-defense is a euphemism, it's just instant vengeance.

For the record I've never burned anyone's crops or smote someone's first born heir. I'm not here trying to play an internet tough guy, just discussing, philosophically.

The definition of satisfaction being a testimony of achievement of vengeance is mine. It's a compulsion, and ignoring it will not satisfy either. Regrets from vengeance are a side effect from the empathetic parts of the human mind. They're an asset to social harmony, but can be counterproductive to individual achievement, two frequently opposed objectives. Vengeance should be very satisfying to individual goals, assuming it was justified by social rank (i.e. you're not barking up the food chain) even if there are pangs of sympathy for the comeuppance you've delivered.

All of this (and everything else you've written in this thread) is retrograde thinking in my opinion. Psychologically, they come from a place where there's been a lack of love, essentially. Sometimes one can also talk about a fundamental loneliness that the person feels. Also I smell whiff of paranoid personality disorder coming from people who strongly push this kind of "philosophical thinking"
Of course it's all a balancing act, and everybody makes their little choices along the way, but there are some views that you take that will define your thinking and thought processes in how you look at the human being and it's place in the world, and influence your values.
There are basically two choices,two paths: one leads to progress, the other to deterioration. Which way do you wanna go?

I have for a long time wondered about the amount of stupidity in humans, and our inability it seems to accept eachother and stand together. I joke about it sometimes, that'll will take the threat of total annihalation by aliens to stop us fighting with eachother. A lot of wasted potential. I remain an optimist though, since I think it's the only strategy that works.

Yeah, and Forgiveness = Freedom. I agree.

 

[Popbumper]

So much of what is being missed here is the modicum of "choice" - in that, given an opportunity to forgive, for lack of better term, some people are incapable of doing so.

In this definition of incapable, I speak more to the fact of it being a rational, conscious motivation as opposed to an outright inability. To wit, we grow up in homes that are filled with examples. As shared in a psychology course, if someone grows up in an empty room, with ONLY the picture of a monkey on the wall, no matter HOW MUCH they may not want to be like that monkey, given the fact it was their only influence in life, they will be more LIKE that monkey than anything else.

By rote, people who cannot forgive and are perceived as incapable of doing so very likely had examples early in life that had the very same problems. "Nurture or nature" arguments aside, the plethora of opinions here are going to be self-based. It is often hard to "unlearn" shortcomings, as it were, because individuals are biased and wired very early in life. Adults often struggle because its hard to "reprogram"....it takes a lot of work to do it. I am not suggesting at all that they should not, but quite often the "leap to freedom" is a gap not easily bridged.

 

[gigslut]

Forgive me if this has already been said here, but one of my favorite sayings is "A grudge is someone living rent free, in your head".

However "forgive and forget" is not such good advice. Do not forget, lest it happen again. Just don't let the memory consume you.

 

[slobake]

Forgive me if this has already been said here, but one of my favorite sayings is "A grudge is someone living rent free, in your head".

However "forgive and forget" is not such good advice. Do not forget, lest it happen again. Just don't let the memory consume you.

+1 Well said

 

[slobake]

So much of what is being missed here is the modicum of "choice" - in that, given an opportunity to forgive, for lack of better term, some people are incapable of doing so.

In this definition of incapable, I speak more to the fact of it being a rational, conscious motivation as opposed to an outright inability. To wit, we grow up in homes that are filled with examples. As shared in a psychology course, if someone grows up in an empty room, with ONLY the picture of a monkey on the wall, no matter HOW MUCH they may not want to be like that monkey, given the fact it was their only influence in life, they will be more LIKE that monkey than anything else.

By rote, people who cannot forgive and are perceived as incapable of doing so very likely had examples early in life that had the very same problems. "Nurture or nature" arguments aside, the plethora of opinions here are going to be self-based. It is often hard to "unlearn" shortcomings, as it were, because individuals are biased and wired very early in life. Adults often struggle because its hard to "reprogram"....it takes a lot of work to do it. I am not suggesting at all that they should not, but quite often the "leap to freedom" is a gap not easily bridged.

I may be an exception but I am one of those people who grew up in a household without forgiveness. As a recovered addict I had to learn that unforgivess = death for me. Even after 30 years I still struggle with it sometimes. I think some struggle with forgiveness is probably norman for us human beings.

 

[aborgman]

Forgiving is a concession that you're too weak to achieve the vengeance you ache for.

Aching for vengeance is a concession that you're too weak to forgive.

 

[Popbumper]

Slobake, I don't think you are an exception at all, I'm sure there are plenty here who have witnessed the same in their time and struggle with it. What I have come to understand in life is that you simply cannot know a man's burdens until you have worn HIS shoes. It is easy for people to pass simple modicums along to others, because they have gained mastery over a particular thing. For others, it's not quite so simple. That's what makes us both tick AND conflict with one another. How we continue through each day and overcome the struggle is what is important. Forgiveness is HUGE, but it is something that needs to be taught, and taught well, because life WILL strip you down.

 

[Unrepresented]

All of this (and everything else you've written in this thread) is retrograde thinking in my opinion.

I appreciate your compliment on my consistency.

Psychologically, they come from a place where there's been a lack of love, essentially. Sometimes one can also talk about a fundamental loneliness that the person feels. Also I smell whiff of paranoid personality disorder coming from people who strongly push this kind of "philosophical thinking"

Perhaps my prescriptions need updating.

Of course it's all a balancing act, and everybody makes their little choices along the way, but there are some views that you take that will define your thinking and thought processes in how you look at the human being and it's place in the world, and influence your values.
There are basically two choices,two paths: one leads to progress, the other to deterioration. Which way do you wanna go?

I disagree that vengeance is the antithesis of progress. Vengeance is a response to inharmonious social practices. I'd argue that responding to the source of inharmonious social practices is progress at its very core.

I have for a long time wondered about the amount of stupidity in humans, and our inability it seems to accept eachother and stand together. I joke about it sometimes, that'll will take the threat of total annihalation by aliens to stop us fighting with eachother.

The Watchmen comic book is supposed to be better than the movie.

A lot of wasted potential. I remain an optimist though, since I think it's the only strategy that works.

No disagreement that there's wasted potential in humanity, but that's inherent in our design. The hundreds of millions of years of ancestry that preceded us weren't the most altruistic lot of genes to pass down. We are the product of a long history of jerks that survived long enough to spawn. Domesticating ourselves isn't either ideal nor easy.

Aching for vengeance is a concession that you're too weak to forgive.

Stop aching then, avenge.

 

[pmchenry]

Forgiving is a concession that you're too weak to achieve the vengeance you ache for.

Totally agree. Surprised at the number of pacifists showing up to disagree actually...

Of course the topic is far more complicated than all that. As nice as it would be to sum up the world in a series of one line quotes about unicorns and rainbows, it's just not a realistic way to approach life.

Gandhi was a pansy...

 

[gigslut]

Even in the alpha/omega scenarios above, the alpha shows forgiveness to the upstart omega who aspires to improve his standing in the pecking order. The omega is usually pinned into submission, then released rather than dispatched. The message is "do not mistake my kindness for weakness". The alpha knows he is only as strong as his pack, once order is restored, the pack is stronger. And who knows, the challenger may someday rise to the top of the order, when it is his time.

 

[Etienned]

. As nice as it would be to sum up the world in a series of one line quotes a...

Those one line quote probably influenced more men and women to make this world a better place than one can expect to do within his entire life.

 

[Unrepresented]

Even in the alpha/omega scenarios above, the alpha shows forgiveness to the upstart omega who aspires to improve his standing in the pecking order. The omega is usually pinned into submission, then released rather than dispatched. The message is "do not mistake my kindness for weakness". The alpha knows he is only as strong as his pack, once order is restored, the pack is stronger. And who knows, the challenger may someday rise to the top of the order, when it is his time.

Vengeance doesn't have to involve excessive retribution.

 

[gigslut]

Vengeance doesn't have to involve excessive retribution.

Flip side to that is, forgiveness does not necessarily require total acquiescence. The American colonies told England 'don't tread on me', and won independence. A few decades later, England attacked our fledgling country. We kicked them out again. Then we forgave each other and became allies and trading partners ever since.

You can hold your ground and still show forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not letting past transgressions and disagreements consume you for the rest of your life, regardless of the outcome.

I guess what I am getting at is that there is a difference between acting in self defense, and acting out of vengeance.
Martial arts teach you to first avoid conflict, then deflect, then if necessary, disable your opponent. Do not strike in anger, but use your opponents anger against him. When the dust settles, do not carry the burden of hatred for eternity.

 

[Unrepresented]

Flip side to that is, forgiveness does not necessarily require total acquiescence. The American colonies told England 'don't tread on me', and won independence. A few decades later, England attacked our fledgling country. We kicked them out again. Then we forgave each other and became allies and trading partners ever since.

You can hold your ground and still show forgiveness.

Forgiveness is not letting past transgressions and disagreements consume you for the rest of your life, regardless of the outcome.

Obviously, there's a good deal of context and spectrum involved with these terms. I would not describe the Colonies "starting a revolutionary war" as "forgiveness." As equilibrium was achieved, between perceived intolerable act and retribution, peace could again be reached, but I'd hesitate to call it forgiveness.

 

[gigslut]

Obviously, there's a good deal of context and spectrum involved with these terms. I would not describe the Colonies "starting a revolutionary war" as "forgiveness." As equilibrium was achieved, between perceived intolerable act and retribution, peace could again be reached, but I'd hesitate to call it forgiveness.

Then you don't understand the meaning of forgiveness. Forgiveness comes after the fact. Forgiveness is not saying to the other, "what you did to me was OK". It is saying to other, 'I have survived your transgression, and it is not going to consume me for the remainder of my life" This takes their power over you away from them. For as long as you carry that grudge, they still own you. As I said earlier, "forgive and forget" is not good advice. Always remember, lest it happen again, but don't let the memory consume you.

I'd say the US and England have done a pretty good job of forgiveness. 200 years of alliance and economic partnership testify to that.

 

[gigslut]

I was editing my previous post as you were replying, sorry I didn't get that in before you read it. Perhaps it clarifies my position. Here it is again.

"I guess what I am getting at is that there is a difference between acting in self defense, and acting out of vengeance.
Martial arts teach you to first avoid conflict, then deflect, then if necessary, disable your opponent. Do not strike in anger, but use your opponents anger against him. When the dust settles, do not carry the burden of hatred for eternity."

 

[Unrepresented]

I was editing my previous post as you were replying, sorry I didn't get that in before you read it.

NO APOLOGIES ACCEPTED HERE! VENGEANCE ONLY!!!!!!!!!11!!

Then you don't understand the meaning of forgiveness. Forgiveness comes after the fact. Forgiveness is not saying to the other, "what you did to me was OK". It is saying to other, 'I have survived your transgression, and it is not going to consume me for the remainder of my life" This takes their power over you away from them. For as long as you carry that grudge, they still own you. As I said earlier, "forgive and forget" is not good advice. Always remember, lest it happen again, but don't let the memory consume you.

I'd say the US and England have done a pretty good job of forgiveness. 200+ years of alliance and economic partnership testify to that.

Perhaps it clarifies my position. Here it is again.

"I guess what I am getting at is that there is a difference between acting in self defense, and acting out of vengeance.
Martial arts teach you to first avoid conflict, then deflect, then if necessary, disable your opponent. Do not strike in anger, but use your opponents anger against him. When the dust settles, do not carry the burden of hatred for eternity."

Why can't vengeance be a temporary thing? You can engage in it, achieve it, and feel satisfied and demand no further concessions from your opponent, no? There's no permanence inherent in avenging a wrong.

I'm still standing behind my statement that "self-defense" is just a socially accepted euphemism for "instant vengeance."

 

[gigslut]

NO APOLOGIES ACCEPTED HERE! VENGEANCE ONLY!!!!!!!!!11!!




Why can't vengeance be a temporary thing? You can engage in it, achieve it, and feel satisfied and demand no further concessions from your opponent, no? There's no permanence inherent in avenging a wrong.

I'm still standing behind my statement that "self-defense" is just a socially accepted euphemism for "instant vengeance."

I am sure there were many vengeful acts committed during the Revolutionary War. However it is not the always the smartest or even most honorable way to wage war. Many battles have been lost because emotions won out over better sense. Famous battles used anger as a ploy to cause enemies to make unwise decisions. The pivotal battles of the war were won by strategy, measuring and exploiting the superior forces' weaknesses, not by meeting them with hatred and brute force. That is the difference between self preservation and vengeance. Vengeance leads to senseless escalation, while self preservation deals in measured and effective responses. We did not annihilate the British, we wore them down into submission.

And if the vengeance is temporary, what comes after it? That's right, forgiveness. That is the very definition. Letting it go after the fact. So while the British/American wars did not begin out of forgiveness, they did eventually end with it.

 

[Unrepresented]

I am sure there were many vengeful acts committed during the Revolutionary War. However it is not the always the smartest or even most honorable way to wage war. Many battles have been lost because emotions won out over better sense. Famous battles used anger as a ploy to cause enemies to make unwise decisions. The pivotal battles of the war were won by strategy, measuring and exploiting the superior forces' weaknesses, not by meeting them with hatred and brute force. That is the difference between self preservation and vengeance. Vengeance leads to senseless escalation, while self preservation deals in measured and effective responses. We did not annihilate the British, we wore them down into submission.

I can't defend blind vengeance as being the best policy for every person at every time. It's best when applied in ways that measure the reprisals (rerevenge) and recognize the limitations of the would be avenger. Our modern society has mostly limited individual vengeance to civil lawsuits, which are much less satisfying and much more expensive than historical predecessors. Going much outside of that, and you're subject to making yourself a victim of societal vengeance (the justice system).

And if the vengeance is temporary, what comes after it? That's right, forgiveness. That is the very definition. Letting it go after the fact. So while the British/American wars did not begin out of forgiveness, they did eventually end with it.

I disagree that forgiveness is the definition of reachieved neutrality. I believe that forgiveness is the act of concession. If you've already achieved vengeance, you've reached neutrality, and are left with nothing more to concede.

 

[gigslut]

Then you still do not understand forgiveness, you don't do it for them, you do it for you. It does not condone, it merely accepts that what has happened can not be changed.
Forgiveness is not dwelling on the past, but seeking a better future.
There is difference is between avenging and seeking revenge for a wrong. One looks forward, the other looks back. One may serve a purpose to achieve peace, one seeks in futility to bring peace of mind by acting outwardly when that peace of mind can only come from within.
The fundamental difference is in what drives it, but is also manifested in how it is carried out and subsequently, the productivity of its results.

As one linguist put it "What distinction remains outside of grammatical usage (take revenge versus avenge someone/something) is morally tinged.

Revenge is typically displayed as an act of passion that offers the original victim catharsis but may not be the correct thing to do (in fact, may be entirely unjustifiable).

To avenge, on the other hand, is more about restoring balance and enacting justice."