Double Bass Fretless Acoustic Bass Guitar?

[aesopslyre]

Like every other offering in this thread, 34" mensure, "Jumbo" or "super Jumbo" guitar body, not enough acoustic volume as a result.

Chennel Arco shipped with a pickup installed by default, IIRC. Looks good, can play on an extended endpin (like the Takamine), curved fretboard too, but with limited unamplified output due to physics.

I own a chennell, I assure you it has enough acoustic projection to compete unamplified with acoustic guitars. And it was not shipped with “pickup installed by default”. I also own a takamine B10, and I can assure you the acoustic projection of the Chennel far exceeds it. The Takamine is not usable unamplified with other instruments; The Arco certainly can hold its own unamplified against acoustic guitars.having owned acoustic bass guitars in the past, and present, The Arco is certainly “not like every other offering in this thread”. And it seems to satisfy the OP’s request. I assume you are discussing an instrument you have no personal experience with.

 

[aesopslyre]

But it's not a guitar...
and the other instrument pictured is not fretless.

It is built according to guitar construction techniques, according to the luthier Chennell. It has internal cross bracing , like an acoustic guitar, although it can be made with bass bar and sound post. Also, it is constructed, unfortunately, IMHO with white glue, not hide glue. Chennel advertises as “Arco acoustic bass guitar”. I’m sure Rigel can manufacture a fretless version , if you’re not inclined to “do a Jaco” on the instrument

 

[turf3]

You all know that people have been trying to get a smaller easier to transport substitute for the double bass for well over a hundred years, don't you?

Does it ever occur to you that there's a good reason why the Precision Bass was instantly successful? It's because none of those other solutions really work very well.

I'm still going to say the best-bang-for-the-buck solution is a cheap P bass with flats, foam rubber at the bridge, and a small battery powered amp.

 

[Keith Rawlings]

I know this isn’t a completely acoustic fret less bass, but I’m a sucker for the Rob Allen MB-2 basses. Pretty much everything he makes is incredible and these are semi-hollow body instruments made out of beautiful, exotic woods. They come up for sale here on Talkbass sometimes and they sound so good with La Bella Tape Wound strings.

Mb-2 fretless gallery — Rob Allen

This guy Peter Kastner just flat out grooves on this MB-2. Such an amazing sound!

 

[mikeGJ]

I own a chennell, I assure you it has enough acoustic projection to compete unamplified with acoustic guitars. And it was not shipped with “pickup installed by default”. I also own a takamine B10, and I can assure you the acoustic projection of the Chennel far exceeds it. The Takamine is not usable unamplified with other instruments; The Arco certainly can hold its own unamplified against acoustic guitars.having owned acoustic bass guitars in the past, and present, The Arco is certainly “not like every other offering in this thread”. And it seems to satisfy the OP’s request. I assume you are discussing an instrument you have no personal experience with.

The Arco is similar in mensure and bodysize other offerings in this thread. That it appears to be a busetto to some is not material to the discussion.

You say it is louder, I can't debate this. It could be a unicorn, or it could be an owner's subjective opinion.

At "jams and open mics", the OP's objective, I doubt it would cut it, anymore than an unplugged Czech-Eaze does.

There are dozens of threads on the BG side on this topic. No unicorns, frequent mentions of the same group of acoustics mentioned here, and nearly everyone says "you need to plug it in to be heard in a jam".

 

[mikeGJ]

I know this isn’t a completely acoustic fret less bass, but I’m a sucker for the Rob Allen MB-2 basses. Pretty much everything he makes is incredible and these are semi-hollow body instruments made out of beautiful, exotic woods. They come up for sale here on Talkbass sometimes and they sound so good with La Bella Tape Wound strings.

Mb-2 fretless gallery — Rob Allen

This guy Peter Kastner just flat out grooves on this MB-2. Such an amazing sound!

Allens, Turner Renaissance, Veillette, Godin, many others produce a fine "URB like" sound, if plugged in. Not really germane to this discussion, though.

 

[GretschWretch]

View attachment 4156076 View attachment 4156083
I wouldn’t be so sure about that....Rigel Acusta and Chennel Arco fit the bill.

I agree.

 

[aesopslyre]

The Arco is similar in mensure and bodysize other offerings in this thread. That it appears to be a busetto to some is not material to the discussion.

You say it is louder, I can't debate this. It could be a unicorn, or it could be an owner's subjective opinion.

At "jams and open mics", the OP's objective, I doubt it would cut it, anymore than an unplugged Czech-Eaze does.

There are dozens of threads on the BG side on this topic. No unicorns, frequent mentions of the same group of acoustics mentioned here, and nearly everyone says "you need to plug it in to be heard in a jam".

“My first wish is to find one that is as loud as I can get so that I could potentially not bring an amp along. My secondary wish is a bass that has a sound that is, at least, suggestive of an upright.”
The Arco or Rigel, or similar seems like what the OP is asking for. In any case , the Arco is approximately the same size as an 1/8 size bass, considerably larger than any ABG I have encountered, except the Rigel, I imagine. It is also not a busetto, it is pear-shaped . Do you imagine a 1/8 sized DB would not be any louder than 99% of ABG’s?

 

[mikeGJ]

“My first wish is to find one that is as loud as I can get so that I could potentially not bring an amp along. My secondary wish is a bass that has a sound that is, at least, suggestive of an upright.”
The Arco or Rigel, or similar seems like what the OP is asking for. In any case , the Arco is approximately the same size as an 1/8 size bass, considerably larger than any ABG I have encountered, except the Rigel, I imagine. It is also not a busetto, it is pear-shaped . Do you imagine a 1/8 sized DB would not be any louder than 99% of ABG’s?

You win. It is perfect. I’d still recommend plugging it in, though.

 

[aesopslyre]

You win. It is perfect. I’d still recommend plugging it in, though.

So would I, as I invariably do for performance with amplified instruments... or a drum kit

 

[kerryg]

The Arco is similar in mensure and bodysize other offerings in this thread. That it appears to be a busetto to some is not material to the discussion.

You say it is louder, I can't debate this. It could be a unicorn, or it could be an owner's subjective opinion.

At "jams and open mics", the OP's objective, I doubt it would cut it, anymore than an unplugged Czech-Eaze does.

There are dozens of threads on the BG side on this topic. No unicorns, frequent mentions of the same group of acoustics mentioned here, and nearly everyone says "you need to plug it in to be heard in a jam".

I’ve owned an Arco for about eight months and done tons of recording and one live gig (it would have been more, but, well, COVID-19). I can confirm that it is not only louder than any of the numerous ABGs I have played, but to my ear it is also substantially more in the “double bass” wheelhouse (relatively speaking of course - but to me ABGs just tend to sound like big guitars tuned low).

Now - having said that – although I could play it acoustically, I probably wouldn’t. I am a bass player and a producer, and to my mind what I’m being paid to do is supply a supportive underpinning in the lower octaves. Because the body is much smaller than a double bass, you can hear the mids and top end well enough for say a duo, but the projection of the bottom octave is sonically much less than a double bass or an amplified electric. It would be audible, but the parts of the sound that would be most audible wouldn’t necessarily be the parts of the sound I feel I am primarily being paid to contribute . There’s a lot of bottom in there – you just have to put a “stethoscope” on the body to bring it out. So a little amp support to fill in that bottom end goes a long way here. I actually used my Genz Benz Streamliner through an Acme Low B 10” at a couple of rehearsals and to my ear it sounded wonderful - the acoustic top end was clear and present and acoustic, and the bottom end was unobtrusively filled in.

For the studio I use a Gage Realist on the bridge and a large-diaphragm condenser microphone (a U47 clone) about a handspan off the bridge, and in the mix I HPF the mic and LPF the pickup and mix to taste. My next purchase will probably be the EBS Stanley Clarke preamp as it seems to accommodate this approach best. I’ll probably eventually grow tired of bringing a mic and stand to a gig and go with a clip-on - quality shouldn’t be crucial, live performance is a bit more forgiving.

This is some early experimentation I did recording the Arco. It’s missing some of the pillowy bottom end of a double bass, and clearly would be out of place in a bass section, but a supportive bottom end can be generated (see B section).

Dropbox - Duke Ellington's "In A Sentimental Mood" for two basses.m4v - Simplify your life

 

[Mudfuzz]

Do you imagine a 1/8 sized DB would not be any louder than 99% of ABG’s?

yes, I have one, they are louder than most abgs but the low e is still weak and lacks a lot of fundamental. Tuned up to A they are a little better.. however a guitarrone is louder and has more fundamental than a 1/8 size bass even if you rig it to have a low string...

 

[carl h.]

@carl h. I may have to try the "false anchor block" trick. I'm wondering about the approximate size of the block?

I set the string spacing based on the pins on the bass. I don't recall if I drilled it or not, but it is stout enough that there is no slippage and not so big that it takes up too much of the length of the string and basically floating with string tension holding it from rattling.. If gigging ever happens again, I'll take a pic on the next string change.

More or less this, in the appropriate length. (The bound block)

 

[aesopslyre]

I’ve owned an Arco for about eight months and done tons of recording and one live gig (it would have been more, but, well, COVID-19). I can confirm that it is not only louder than any of the numerous ABGs I have played, but to my ear it is also substantially more in the “double bass” wheelhouse (relatively speaking of course - but to me ABGs just tend to sound like big guitars tuned low).

Now - having said that – although I could play it acoustically, I probably wouldn’t. I am a bass player and a producer, and to my mind what I’m being paid to do is supply a supportive underpinning in the lower octaves. Because the body is much smaller than a double bass, you can hear the mids and top end well enough for say a duo, but the projection of the bottom octave is sonically much less than a double bass or an amplified electric. It would be audible, but the parts of the sound that would be audible wouldn’t necessarily be the parts of the sound I feel I am primarily being paid to contribute . There’s a lot of bottom in there – you just have to put a “stethoscope” on the body to bring it out. So a little amp support to fill in that bottom end goes a long way here. (I actually used my Genz Benz Streamliner through an Acme Low B 10” and it sounded wonderful - the acoustic top end was clear and present and acoustic, and the bottom end was unobtrusively filled in).

For this I use a Gage Realist on the bridge and a condenser microphone about a handspan off the bridge, and in the mix I HPF the mic and LPF the pickup and mix to taste. My next purchase will probably be the EBS Stanley Clarke preamp as it seems to accommodate this approach best. I’ll probably eventually grow tired of bringing a mic and stand to a gig and go with a clip-on - quality shouldn’t be crucial, live performance is a bit more forgiving.

This is some early experimentation I did recording the Arco. It’s missing some of the pillowy bottom end of a double bass, and clearly would be out of place in a bass section, but a supportive bottom end can be generated (see B section).

Dropbox - Duke Ellington's "In A Sentimental Mood" for two basses.m4v - Simplify your life

Lovely arrangement, recording and performance. That said, I’m curious about your string choice. I use 1/4 size Spiros on mine, or sometimes Obligatgos for a darker tone. I get the impression you are not using DB strings,.

 

[kerryg]

Lovely arrangement, recording and performance. That said, I’m curious about your string choice. I use 1/4 size Spiros on mine, or sometimes Obligatgos for a darker tone. I get the impression you are not using DB strings,.

Thanks! heh - “choice” - I wish I had one. You’re quite right - I’m using the NS electric cello strings it came with, and wishing I’d been able to find a four-string Arco instead of a five so I could start experimenting with DB strings (which as you probably know can’t be found in that scale length in five string sets). But if you’ve got suggestions I’d be fascinated.

 

[mikeGJ]

yes, I have one, they are louder than most abgs but the low e is still weak and lacks a lot of fundamental. Tuned up to A they are a little better.. however a guitarrone is louder and has more fundamental than a 1/8 size bass even if you rig it to have a low string...

I am glad to hear confirmation from you and Kerryg of aesopslyre's reports. A unicorn exists!

 

[aesopslyre]

Thanks! heh - “choice” - I wish I had one. You’re quite right - I’m using the NS electric cello strings it came with, and wishing I’d been able to find a four-string Arco instead of a five so I could start experimenting with DB strings (which as you probably know can’t be found in that scale length in five string sets). But if you’ve got suggestions I’d be fascinated.

I use a 3/4 size high c string on my 1/2 size 5 string DB with no issues, it might work for the arco as well, cut down, of course. I was looking for a 5- String arco before I commissioned a luthier to build me the 1/2 size 5-string... wanna trade?

 

[aesopslyre]

I am glad to hear confirmation from you and Kerryg of aesopslyre's reports. A unicorn exists!

I think you’ve got the wrong quote up....”
Mudfuzz said: ↑
yes, I have one, they are louder than most abgs but the low e is still weak and lacks a lot of fundamental. Tuned up to A they are a little better.. however a guitarrone is louder and has more fundamental than a 1/8 size bass...”

 

[aesopslyre]

I am glad to hear confirmation from you and Kerryg of aesopslyre's reports. A unicorn exists!

Just so you understand the dimensions of the Arco, here’s a vid I did (amplified) with a guitarist. I am about 6’2”, and 230 lbs. you can see the body of the instrument is twice as large as any common ABG.

 

[N. Kentucky Bass]

This is becoming quite "the" thread on ABG! I no longer own one, but when I did play one seriously, I made a video about how to record the ABG. Might be helpful if some of you dive into that pool and are looking for ideas.