Fretless players; lined or unlined? and why?

[luciens]

1. Intonation matters.

2. Neither the audience nor the tape can hear whether or not lines happen to be on the instrument.

I will never understand why this particular choice / discussion is such a TB flashpoint. Makes zero sense for otherwise intelligent musicians to assert anything other than their own preference. Particularly the “training wheels” denigration for players who use marks on the fingerboard. So, Jaco needed “training wheels?” Seriously? Dark comedy at best.

It really only matters on TB, that I can tell. And even at that, it's more of a "tough love" kind of thing in my observation. Meaning, it's rooted in the immature idea of if it's harder, it's automatically better for you.

It is true that the unlined FL is demonstrably a little more difficult to intonate than the lined (with how much "a little" is left vague here ), but the ROI on the effort to play each one is identical (the fretless tone, etc). And, following this mentality, it is thought that the more difficult method to achieve the same thing has some kind of value for you as a player, musician, person, whatever. Go figure - pick your poison on that one.

For myself, if I really pick at the scab of the lined vs unlined thingy in my own mind, I can eke out the occasional feeling that the additional challenge of the unlined can be enjoyable if I'm in the mood. Sometimes it's just funner to play an old standard on the Tony Franklin vs. the Jaco just for the "fun" of trying to intonate it as well on the unlined as I do on the lined Jaco. The Jaco always wins, but with practice I can get very close on the TF. Sometimes that work can be fun.

But that's the only metric I could use to establish a preference for the unlined over the lined as a player.

Apart from that, there are definite practical reasons to prefer unlined, though. A big one is that unlined basses are less coveted by thieves. They're harder to pawn and unload than a fretted bass. This has been amply demonstrated by my own experience, having been robbed of basses multiple times, but each time only my fretted and lined basses were taken. My original L2000 unlined, for example, survived 2 robberies dead in a row at the same house, but none of my fretted ones did, and even my lined 6 string was taken instead of it.

Also, unlined fingerboards don't have cuts in the wood for the slots in the typical lined version, which can add a little bit of stability to the wood. No slot areas to depress and begin to buzz over time, if the fingerboard is bare wood.

Anyway, that's my analysis on the why's of lined vs unlined. At the end of the day, it's a non-issue when it comes to playing....

L

 

[SteveCS]

Exactly. Another way to state it is, always be suspicious of the guys who say that lines "mess them up" and they have problems with "training bars" etc. That typically means they're trying to master the flying fingers landing in the right place method, rather than learning active, deliberate intonation. The latter being the "right way" to really achieving good intonation control...

L

This is a huge generalisation bassd on erroneous assumptions. Lines have no beneficial bearing on the development of secure intonation. I don't know if they hinder it, but they are not necessary for it. The most important factor for playing in tune is knowing what 'in tune' sounds like. Position markers cannot teach that. The second most important factor for playing in tune is developing a hand-shape and posture calibrated to your understanding of what 'in tune' sounds like. Markers cannot teach this either. There is no third factor.

 

[coy garcia]

I wish the op would have titled this thead differently, it would have been a much more spirited debate..lol
Fretless players; unlined or sissy lines? and why?

 

[luciens]

This is a huge generalisation bassd on erroneous assumptions. Lines have no beneficial bearing on the development of secure intonation. I don't know if they hinder it, but they are not necessary for it. The most important factor for playing in tune is knowing what 'in tune' sounds like. Position markers cannot teach that. The second most important factor for playing in tune is developing a hand-shape and posture calibrated to your understanding of what 'in tune' sounds like. Markers cannot teach this either. There is no third factor.

Yes, exactly. Which is the reason for my statement. Lines are only an optional visual aid in getting into the neighborhood of a desired note and that's it. They will not help or hinder your control over the actual intonation of that note - you still have to perform that task The Old Fashioned Way regardless. If they are hindering you, you're relying on the wrong thing....

L

 

[Smooth_bass88]

I want this!!! Lined fretless WITH factory relic finish!!!

 

[nonohmic]

It's pretty obvious from Steve Bailey's playing that he's cooked up some relativistic notion of intonation. He might as well be on payroll for the Big Line lobby.

Was waiting for the 'Steve Bailey has poor intonation' post. He's sure done alright for himself with it.

 

[luciens]

Was waiting for the 'Steve Bailey has poor intonation' post. He's sure done alright for himself with it.

Never understood that criticism either. Maybe guys are just being ironic or not really serious, dunno. SB is probably the only FL player other than Jaco that always sounds good higher up on the neck. Nobody else can seem to do it deliberately and every time the way SB can/ Jaco could.

The rest of us can aspire to it, but even with lines we're like the proverbial dying cat above about the 10th "fret" area, more frequently than we'd like...

L

 

[luciens]

View attachment 4521585 I want this!!! Lined fretless WITH factory relic finish!!!

If I had the disposable cash, and the CS would make me that bass but with a normal non-beat up finish on it.... I would actually do it. If for that epoxy finish on the neck alone.... my plain-jane Jaco artist is already as good as you can do on a Jazz fretless, I definitely acknowledge that. But something in my psyche just wants that CS in plain-jane Nitro and that epoxy fingerboard and would pay for it if the means were available...

L

 

[Kirk Bryant]

BOTH !!!. If I have to play loud, I would prefer that it’s lined. I need to hear myself well to play well. Additionally, on those types of gigs, I tend to sing a lot . My attention is normally divided between my playing and my singing, I do sing a bunch of lead. So adding a third task that would normally get more of the focus, means everything suffers a little. Even if it’s not noticeable to the casual observer, I certainly know I'm not devoting as much of my attention when it’s divided by three.
In a more acoustic setting ie; jazzy, low to mid vol., where I can hear well, my intonation is pretty good, so, unlined is fine. I can can sing more easily with less audio information.(noise).

 

[Digital Larry]

Having purchased a fretless somewhat on a whim after playing fretted only for more than 35 years, I'm glad I got one with lines on it. It was not as hard as I had imagined, given that my left hand was relatively well trained in where it needed to go. Until recently I had only that and a TMB 30 (short scale) which of course is a totally different experience.

Similar topic, I've seen fretted electric violins which strikes me as a little odd. But, ya know, whatever it takes. If someone wants to think less of me because the neck has lines on it, their opinion will really drop when they hear my music.

 

[Digital Larry]

I'm special because I refuse to play covers; I'm special because I only play four strings;

Busted!

 

[lfmn16]

Busted!

Yea, but in your case you really are!

 

[Digital Larry]

Yea, but in your case you really are!

Oh, thank you (taking a bow).

 

[lfmn16]

Oh, thank you (taking a bow).

 

[chadds]

A few side dots are beneficial on stage at the start of a set. Once music is happening you're not supposed to be focusing on finger position but on making the note, in time, with feeling.

If you don't get your touch together you can sound like poo on a fretted bass. If you learned appropriately you know where your finger goes on the string before the fret. If you are drunk and or slovenly and think you can put your finger anywhere between the frets.........?
If your ears aren't telling you that your finger is misplaced on a fretted bass then you might want to try less eq and/or a more accurate amp and cab. Have your bass setup and possibly take lessons.
Why? Because you may need to bend a string to be on pitch because your singer backed into you and your tuning peg was turned. Or that Flea imitation has you all out of tune.

 

[dkelley]

A few side dots are beneficial on stage at the start of a set. Once music is happening you're not supposed to be focusing on finger position but on making the note, in time, IN TUNE WITHOUT MISSING, with feeling.

I just want to use this post to point out that we are talking about fretless bass here, not fretted. Note that I added the bold underlined italics part, above, to the comment I'm quoting.

Regarding the criteria for what we are supposed to be focusing on.... this commenter said that we're "not supposed to be focusing on finger position but on making the note".... however, on fretless bass, finger position dictates if we are playing the note in tune or not. Therefore, we literally MUST focus on finger position on fretless... not so much on fretted if you don't want to. But on fretless? Finger position is critical.

I'm just using your post as a foundation for a summary of my earlier thoughts, which is this:

Playing in tune is just as important as playing on time. Being in tune is part of making music. Playing out of tune gets people fired from recording sessions (or black-listed to never get hired again from live gigs).... I watch it happen regularly.

Now, if we are not in a critical gig where tuning is super important - that's fine. Playing in tune has always been critical in the music I've made and for those who I have performed or recorded with. Some of them are exceptionally picky, where fretless is literally required because the tuning on a chord required the bass note to be a few cents sharp to mesh with the brass, or whatever.... because tuning is not mathematically perfect on fretted instruments. However the best way to REPEATEDLY and RELIABLY accomplish such minute tuning adjustments on fretless bass, from my own experience, is with a lined instrument where you can clearly place your finger on the exact spot over and over again, even if that spot is not directly stopped at the edge of the line.

 

[bucephylus]

Playing with accurate intonation is essential. I personally don’t care how players get that done; only that it is done.

If you can play moderately challenging pieces with great intonation, such as the head to Billie’s Bounce, then you are good with or without lines.

The “training wheels” comments are antagonistic and entirely inappropriate for this forum. Lines on bass guitar fingerboards are entirely unlike the tape strips on beginner cellos and basses. Cellos and upright basses also do not have side dots, as a rule. Positions are learned by physical position; and those references are far more difficult on the horizontal bass guitar neck.

Not saying it can’t be done, because I have seen it; but playing a fretless bass guitar with accurate intonation and without any visual references, such as side dots, is extremely difficult.

For my Big Band gig, requiring reading standard notation lines / charts for more than 550 tunes, there was no way I was going to use my fretless; simply because I can not read and do accurate intonation at the same time on a fretless bass guitar. Whether side dots or fingerboard lines or whatever, I need visual references on bass guitar, and make no bones about it. My props to anyone who can do otherwise.

 

[J Posega]

Unlined with some cheater dots.

In theory, lined would be way easier on this bass, but I find them really distracting and confusing.

 

[Barton Lee]

I started on upright in 1977 and my first fretless electric bass was an unlined Fender Jazz. I played both in a 19-piece big band and the Jazz with several jazz and rock bands. Years later, I bought a Fender Tony Franklin fretless P, unlined of course.

In between, I had access to my then girlfriend/now wife's fretless 72 Fender P, which had been defretted. It was a great sounding bass but I've always hated playing it because of the lines, which distract me from using my ear instead of my eyes. My intonation was less accurate with lines.

Whatever works for you is fine. For me, lines are a false friend. Muscle memory and a good ear are the key to successful fretless playing in my experience.

 

[dkelley]

Playing with accurate intonation is essential. I personally don’t care how players get that done; only that it is done.

If you can play moderately challenging pieces with great intonation, such as the head to Billie’s Bounce, then you are good with or without lines.

The “training wheels” comments are antagonistic and entirely inappropriate for this forum. Lines on bass guitar fingerboards are entirely unlike the tape strips on beginner cellos and basses. Cellos and upright basses also do not have side dots, as a rule. Positions are learned by physical position; and those references are far more difficult on the horizontal bass guitar neck.

Not saying it can’t be done, because I have seen it; but playing a fretless bass guitar with accurate intonation and without any visual references, such as side dots, is extremely difficult.

For my Big Band gig, requiring reading standard notation lines / charts for more than 550 tunes, there was no way I was going to use my fretless; simply because I can not read and do accurate intonation at the same time on a fretless bass guitar. Whether side dots or fingerboard lines or whatever, I need visual references on bass guitar, and make no bones about it. My props to anyone who can do otherwise.

absolutely 100% agree