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Fretless Side Dots

#41
Ed Goode said:
One lined, most not ... lines don’t matter, dots don’t matter. Either you put the time in to learn how to properly intonate the bass while playing, or you’ll play out of tune most times. There’s no magic secret, you need to put the time in with your bass. A whole bunch of fretted players just never get this basic fact, people who play stringed orchestral instruments get it right away. You need to put the time in and work with the bass and your ears ...
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I agree, with a caveat: intonation comes from good technique as much as it does from the amount of time spent. Meaning, proper technique on a fretted bass includes things such as one finger per fret, pressing the notes (strings) down just behind the fret, etc. If you have good technique on fretted, your fingers will find the right places for proper intonation on fretless. You still need to put in the time, including training your ear, but without good technique it is harder.
 
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#42
Abner said:
This is true, but the question was about "missing" side dots on an unlined fretless bass. I don't think the OP cares about markings on a classical guitar.
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True!

At the end of the day though, dots/edge lines/full lines are all just different levels of explicit markings.

As I continue to learn the upright, I have none of those in my arsenal, but what I do have is some of what my teacher has suggested at various points.

- Locate the natural harmonics and use them as a guide.
- When practicing, occasionally check your intonation against an open string if there’s a relevant interval.
- Vomit exercise
- Practicing doing scales by intervals (playing up and down using things like fifths, thirds, fourths, etc.)

I will say this - my ear has definitely improved for doing it.

My teacher was an advocate of not using any markers because they’ll almost always be wrong as temperature and humidity variations will cause things to shift around, and it’s not hard to get in the right general area, which means the markers don’t really add a ton of value.

Ironically, I think it is easier to get intonation right on a double bass than on a bass guitar because of the longer scale length being more forgiving for being a fixed distance off.

Frankly, I sort of wish my fretless didn’t have lines or dots at all, but it was cheap and I hadn’t started upright yet.
 
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#43
BurningSkies said:
There IS no shame, though there's lots of the TB fretless community that would love to try to shame players who want that or lines in a not so subtle elitism. They're the same people who want you to play blindfolded or under a new moon at midnight in your windowless basement. Generally nonsense, and there are some well known high quality fretless players who use lined basses. People should pick the one they're most comfortable with and play the heck out of it. All of the nonsense stops players from picking up and trying to play fretless...which probably means the world misses out on a whole bunch of guys who would be great fretless players.


Just because you have lines or want markers doesn't mean you have to use them:
View attachment 4282025

(live on stage at the Odeon in Nelson NY)

There's lots of guys I think we can agree can play fretless pretty flawlessly that like lines.

View attachment 4282027

^Oh carp, he's even LOOKING at them!

Then there's this guy:

View attachment 4282028
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I could not agree more.
 
#44
smtp4me said:
I could not agree more.
Click to expand...

My first fretless was an unlined Jazz (markers on the fret locations, not on the 'in between' points as they'd be on a regular fretted Jazz. Worked fine, I played it live and in the studio for a few years in the 90's. Eventually sold it. My next was the Fretless Dingwall. I've also played that one live (obviously) and do have live recordings of it that also sound just fine. It's lined and has the regular markers.

Pretty much all of last year, I put down fretted basses and ONLY played fretless. After about 6 months of that I sort of got to the realization that it's not magic...if you have good technique and listen and put some time in, it's not some mystical thing. I always feel that people do their best to try to scare other players away from even giving it a try.
 
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#45
g-dude said:
True!

At the end of the day though, dots/edge lines/full lines are all just different levels of explicit markings.

As I continue to learn the upright, I have none of those in my arsenal, but what I do have is some of what my teacher has suggested at various points.

- Locate the natural harmonics and use them as a guide.
- When practicing, occasionally check your intonation against an open string if there’s a relevant interval.
- Vomit exercise
- Practicing doing scales by intervals (playing up and down using things like fifths, thirds, fourths, etc.)

I will say this - my ear has definitely improved for doing it.

My teacher was an advocate of not using any markers because they’ll almost always be wrong as temperature and humidity variations will cause things to shift around, and it’s not hard to get in the right general area, which means the markers don’t really add a ton of value.

Ironically, I think it is easier to get intonation right on a double bass than on a bass guitar because of the longer scale length being more forgiving for being a fixed distance off.

Frankly, I sort of wish my fretless didn’t have lines or dots at all, but it was cheap and I hadn’t started upright yet.
Click to expand...


To the same extent its always easier to play fretless bass guitar in the 0-7th fret range and as you get further up the neck you need to be more precise...way less wiggle room where the frets get crowded. ;)
 
#46
Abner said:
If the dots are in the wrong place, yes. Why you would want to build a bass that way, I do not know.

I have often thought that even fretted instruments would be better with the side dots directly under the frets.
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They just match them up to the board inlays. To be astetically cohesive. They're peripheral reference points. That's all. You would have to notch out and remove the top corner of the fret to mark them where the fret is.
 
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#48
BurningSkies said:
My first fretless was an unlined Jazz (markers on the fret locations, not on the 'in between' points as they'd be on a regular fretted Jazz. Worked fine, I played it live and in the studio for a few years in the 90's. Eventually sold it. My next was the Fretless Dingwall. I've also played that one live (obviously) and do have live recordings of it that also sound just fine. It's lined and has the regular markers.

Pretty much all of last year, I put down fretted basses and ONLY played fretless. After about 6 months of that I sort of got to the realization that it's not magic...if you have good technique and listen and put some time in, it's not some mystical thing. I always feel that people do their best to try to scare other players away from even giving it a try.
Click to expand...
Yep. Fretted basses are not perfectly intonated, and even the most skilled fretless players do not have perfect intonation - there is no such thing. I started playing fretless about 5-6 years ago, and it took a solid year for me to develop the technique - vibrato, slides, using the pads of finger tips, milking "mwah" out of it, ... I was a little intimidated at first, but I stayed with it and am glad I did.
 
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#49
smtp4me said:
Yep. Fretted basses are not perfectly intonated, and even the most skilled fretless players do not have perfect intonation - there is no such thing. I started playing fretless about 5-6 years ago, and it took a solid year for me to develop the technique - vibrato, slides, using the pads of finger tips, milking "mwah" out of it, ... I was a little intimidated at first, but I stayed with it and am glad I did.
Click to expand...

Some of that specific fretless technique mechanical stuff was easier for me to get right by using flatwounds, but I really prefer the string tension and tone of round-wounds. I spent a lot of time with rounds to just become more precise so that I could hit notes as dead on as possible with sliding into them. In other words, I wanted to play it like a fretted bass when I want that kind of vibe rather than a player who leans on slides and vibrato instead of precision. Once I got pretty fully comfortable there, I put on flats and worked on several types of vibrato techniques and the rest...before going back to rounds.
 
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#50
JeezyMcNuggles said:
The dots mark center of 3 5 7 9 12 15 17 19 and so on. Just like a fretted bass. If you're playing your bass on the dots, your playing about half step down out of tune.

The note is the exact middle of two dots. If you aren't putting your finger in the exact center of two dots, you're playing out of tune.

The fretted bass guitar was named "The Precision Bass" for a reason.
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Most fretless basses have the dot right on the note not between the notes, I got rid of one because it had side dots like a fretted bass.
 
#52
JeezyMcNuggles said:
They just match them up to the board inlays. To be astetically cohesive. They're peripheral reference points. That's all. You would have to notch out and remove the top corner of the fret to mark them where the fret is.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I do get that. But I also think there's no reason to stick with tradition just for the sake of tradition when it can be done better. (And yes, "better" is very subjective. As can be seen by this thread, not everybody thinks "better" is the same thing at all.)

And I think there's plenty of room under the fret for side dots. At the very least you could put the dot just behind the fret rather than halfway in between two of them.

But again... drifting off topic.
 
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#53
bobyoung53 said:
Most fretless basses have the dot right on the note not between the notes, I got rid of one because it had side dots like a fretted bass.
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No, most have them in normal placement. I guess there are some that don't. I've had two electrics and an acoustic. Completely different companies. Dots in standard placement. It's standard placement.

Some companies put the dots right behind the fret on fretted basses as well. Again, not standard placement.
 
#54
I like that on my NS Design CR5 fretless, there are subtle dots on the fingerboard to indicate position. To me it's sort of the best of both worlds of a lined board and an unlined board. The dots are subtle enough that they are not really visible from the audience, but they are visible enough to give me a very quick reference point if I need it.

ns_bass_web-jpg.jpg


rig

rig

 
#55
JeezyMcNuggles said:
No, most have them in normal placement. I guess there are some that don't. I've had two electrics and an acoustic. Completely different companies. Dots in standard placement. It's standard placement.

Some companies put the dots right behind the fret on fretted basses as well. Again, not standard placement.
Click to expand...


That is not very common, you must have just lucked out. :laugh:
 
#56
A bit random, but look at this Soundgear Portamento. It's beautiful, BUT: there's a marker for every fret AND side dots AND they're not where your fingers should go. Am I insane because I think it's some bizarre form of Morse code? It just freaks me out every time I see it.
 

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#59
M0ses said:
If you are using position markers to play in tune you are 1000% doing it wrong and probably not really in tune.

Use your ear. There is no other applicable tool.

The dots\lines help you shift wrist position up and down the neck. Nothing more.
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I think a lot of fretless players would feel a little lost without some kind of guide; Tony Franklin even says as much. I've just never seen another series of basses side-marked to this extent.
 
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