Fretless Side Dots

[g-dude]

Same- side dots where they would be on a fretted are useless on a fretless. Unfortunately I’ve always had to custom order my fretlesses to be this way:
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I’m sure it’s the angle of the photo or some sort of optical illusion, but it almost looks like the 3rd fret line and 9th fret line don’t bisect the dots exactly.

 

[MultiScaleMale]

Muscle memory is strengthened by hand/eye coordination. Ears only tell you when you’ve already made the mistake and it’s too late to fix. If you’re not using one of the available tools to get yourself to play in tune then you’re just taking a longer, harder, and less accurate road to get to the same place.

Yeah, I mostly use the dots / markers for getting closer to the right spot, say I have to start a phrase on an F on the G string. The markers help me start that note in tune and there isn't a warble as I slide up or down because I was off a little. Why make things more complicated, there are no honor badges handed out?

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I’m sure it’s the angle of the photo or some sort of optical illusion, but it almost looks like the 3rd fret line and 9th fret line don’t bisect the dots exactly.

It’s the angle. Actually, parallax is another reason why side dots alone aren’t nearly as helpful as fretlines, particularly on wider fretboards where it’s increased.

 

[g-dude]

Why make things more complicated, there are no honor badges handed out?

You don’t get the honor badges until you earn your rocker and are fully patched in.

 

[g-dude]

It’s the angle. Actually, parallax is another reason why side dots alone aren’t nearly as helpful as fretlines, particularly on wider fretboards where it’s increased.

That’s good. I almost hesitated to ask in case there was an issue.

 

[BurningSkies]

Muscle memory is strengthened by hand/eye coordination. Ears only tell you when you’ve already made the mistake and it’s too late to fix. If you’re not using one of the available tools to get yourself to play in tune then you’re just taking a longer, harder, and less accurate road to get to the same place.

Yep. And fretless gets a bad name often because people depend on sliding into and using vibrato to hit everything. Which I guess is a valid style option but pretty limited if you are also playing in a variety of musical settings. I'm happy to use my eyes along with my muscle memory when I'm playing fretless, and having good markers on the sides and lines can certainly be a part of that. I know how my individual fingers address the board and intonate up and down the neck, if you're trying to play discrete individual notes rather than work into them, lines and dots are certainly not a hindrance to your moving around on the board.

Though fretless goth bassists keep at it.

 

[Killing Floor]

This always draws out folks on both sides.
I don’t really see the face of my fingerboard on any of my basses or guitars. That’s not an opinion, I simply don’t tilt off vertical by very much unless I’m noodling on the sofa. So top lines or marks wouldn’t help me. But side dots or marks are an easy reference. I think as long as I’ve played a fretless I’ve always had side dots in standard fretted position or no dots at all so it might fry my brain if I got a bass with the dots moved up to center. Or maybe not.

On my favorite old P fretless these is a dent right in the back of the neck almost directly below the 5 and I can find my start (at least on lower end of the neck) by that feel on a dark stage. Is that cheating? Plus if I goofed I’d just make some big vibrato haha.

 

[drumvsbass]

Muscle memory is strengthened by hand/eye coordination. Ears only tell you when you’ve already made the mistake and it’s too late to fix. If you’re not using one of the available tools to get yourself to play in tune then you’re just taking a longer, harder, and less accurate road to get to the same place.

I used to believe in the training wheels of lines (jaco had lines), now I don't. I feel as though they were a crutch in a bad way that allowed me not to use my ears as critically. When I got my first blank board it was a bit uphill psychologically speaking, but not technically speaking, I got over it quick and now prefer unlined boards and feel I am better at fretless because of it. But I also practice like a madman.



bonus points if you know the band.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

I used to believe in the training wheels of lines (jaco had lines), now I don't. I feel as though they were a crutch in a bad way that allowed me not to use my ears as critically. When I got my first blank board it was a bit uphill psychologically speaking, but not technically speaking, I got over it quick and now prefer unlined boards and feel I am better at fretless because of it. But I also practice like a madman.



bonus points if you know the band.

It’s understandable if you had trouble looking away from them or using them in conjunction with your ears and muscle memory simultaneously. But that would be because of you, not the lines. It’s hilarious any time I hear them called training wheels. What kind of race do you think you’re in, and where are you getting the idea that you’re going to win against Gary Willis and his training wheels? Music isn’t a competition, and anything that gets you to play in tune is a good thing.

 

[darwin-bass]

Hey, I know this topic has been discussed here before but I couldn't find an answer to one particular question.

Why are the fretless side dots often only on every other note...and if you are using the dots as a guideline then how are you suppose to do the same for the non-dotted note...is it just the middle between 2 dots...?

Thanks!

Also -- I know you should use your ears, so hoping to avoid that debate.

I used a silver metallic sharpie to add dots at 1,2, 10,11, 13, 14 - you know, those places with 2 notes between dots. The dots I added look different enough from the factory dots that they stand as separate yet help to map out that no-man's-land in those big jump regions. It really helped.

 

[BassFalcon]

Not a Fretless player yet, mine is still being built, unlined, and I believe with standard Fretless positioned side dots. With that model I didn’t have a choice, but I do have college level and semi-pro DB experience so unlined is my preference. I have no dog in the lined vs. unlined fight, I say use what works for you. But in the DB world the big landmark is where the neck meets the body. You either have a D neck an Eb neck. That means when you slam your hand to the bottom of the neck your 4th finger lands on either a D on the g-string or an Eb. Ned Steinberger developed this to simulate that landmark on his electric uprights, I jokingly considered putting it on my Fretless electric neck when it gets here just to have that landmark, lol.
Bass Thumbstop Neck Heel Rest | NS Design

 

[BarfanyShart]

I decided that when I get a fretless, I would go completely unlined/undotted, and just put little circular stationary stickers wherever I needed them. That's what we did as DB students, and I feel like that's the approach I would want learning fretless BG.

 

[Fernando Costa]

The thing it's really a very personal thing. If some very expensive basses "can" have fret lines, it will certainly cause problems with the cheaper basses. When in doubt, I think the scale should always be clean. Certainly relying on dots or lines is no shame, of course. As for dots - which is the subject here - there is no problem, but for some of us they are useless.

If you play basses with frets you already have a lot of muscle memory and you shouldn't have problems with a fretless with the same scale size. Another detail is that on a stage I was never able to see dots, lines, or whatever is this size. I don't intend to put leds on my instruments, I prefer to study a lot and play without looking too much.

Many singers use a small portamento to set the tones correctly, they never try to nail the note directly. It is a good tool to use on fretless instruments. And we must not forget, frets are never in the right position. Much of this has already been said here, sorry for not quote anyone.

 

[drumvsbass]

It’s understandable if you had trouble looking away from them or using them in conjunction with your ears and muscle memory simultaneously. But that would be because of you, not the lines. It’s hilarious any time I hear them called training wheels. What kind of race do you think you’re in, and where are you getting the idea that you’re going to win against Gary Willis and his training wheels? Music isn’t a competition, and anything that gets you to play in tune is a good thing.

You know what gets people in tune... Frets.

 

[M0ses]

anything that gets you to play in tune is a good thing.

That's what we're trying to convince you of, bro. Lines don't get you to play in tune. They are a rough approximation so you can judge position, not pitch. You can place your finger visually on the line all day long and still be way out. It just ain't that simple. The size and shape of your fingertip. The arch and roll of your joints. The pressure you play with. The setup of your bass. They key of the tune you're playing. The pitches the rest of the ensemble is actually playing (much different from the theoretical!) There are many factors and none of them give a damn about what your hand LOOKS like. YOU CAN'T SEE PITCH. Again, there is exactly ONE applicable tool to evaluate tuning. Your ear. Yes, even an "always on" tuner will lie to you.

I have two position markers on my fretless, 5 and 12. When I need to make a large shift in wrist position I take a glance. My upright has an imperfection in the wood grain almost right where the 4th fret would be, it can be handy for sure but it sure as F doesn't let me know if I'm playing Ab in tune or not!

 

[Eilif]

Agree.

However, it’s also worth noting that some builders place the side dots where the fretboard inlays are traditionally found. Which is to say between the actual fret positions. Other builders place them where the actual fret would be. There is no formal standard every builder adheres to.

True, but reputable companies of fretless builders putting dots in between frets are few and far between. There are exceptions but you usually only see that on Vintage Fenders and on cheap import basses (Glarry...) where they maker makes a fretless by just leaving off the frets. The industry has moved well away from the practice.

 

[gleneg61]

I bought a lefty 5 string unlined fretless Warwick wenge neck when Dana B were offloading their inventory and the neck had only top dots but on the actual fret positions in the usual places so I had a luthier put top mini lines on all the other note positions and it’s basically the same as a fretted neck when being played, no confusion with notes with top dots/lines only and from the front totally clean but ears are the best guide, with some invisible visuals for a crutch. Also, I was told when I first started playing bass to play basically on the fret, actually just a hair behind it for accuracy and muscle memory if I ever wanted to play fretless in tune and switch between both and that advice has served me well. Hope it helps

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

That's what we're trying to convince you of, bro. Lines don't get you to play in tune. They are a rough approximation so you can judge position, not pitch. You can place your finger visually on the line all day long and still be way out. It just ain't that simple. The size and shape of your fingertip. The arch and roll of your joints. The pressure you play with. The setup of your bass. They key of the tune you're playing. The pitches the rest of the ensemble is actually playing (much different from the theoretical!) There are many factors and none of them give a damn about what your hand LOOKS like. YOU CAN'T SEE PITCH. Again, there is exactly ONE applicable tool to evaluate tuning. Your ear. Yes, even an "always on" tuner will lie to you.

I have two position markers on my fretless, 5 and 12. When I need to make a large shift in wrist position I take a glance. My upright has an imperfection in the wood grain almost right where the 4th fret would be, it can be handy for sure but it sure as F doesn't let me know if I'm playing Ab in tune or not!

Lines get you to play in tune just as much as your ears do. The differences lines can get your hands in place to play in tune before you play the note wrong, unlike your ears. The only thing that matters is getting your fingers in the right place before you play the note. Your ears correct afterwards, lines (if you know how to set up your bass) can get you there before. You have numerous tools at your disposal to play in tune. Pretending that using your eyes to aid in this somehow worse only hurts yourself. I’ve also been playing fretless for over 20 years so I know just how simple or not it is.

 

[M0ses]

Lines get you to play in tune just as much as your ears do.

LOL
Funnily enough to immediately realize you have to revise that view:

The only thing that matters is getting your fingers in the right place before you play the note. Your ears correct afterwardsa

So, exactly what I said. Position not pitch.

 

[Bryan R. Tyler]

LOL
Funnily enough to immediately realize you have to revise that view:



So, exactly what I said. Position not pitch.

Pitch doesn’t occur without using your hands. And your ears will get you a less accurate position than your eyes. So you use both, or you opt not to use one for… no good reason.