Fretless Side Dots

[40Hz]

True, but reputable companies of fretless builders putting dots in between frets are few and far between. There are exceptions but you usually only see that on Vintage Fenders and on cheap import basses (Glarry...) where they maker makes a fretless by just leaving off the frets. The industry has moved well away from the practice.

I’m not quite sure what “reputable companies” means in this context since there is no agreed upon industry standard. But if they’ve since adopted some informal “best practice” then I’m all for it.

I myself don’t really care either way how they do it since I never found position markers to be all that useful to begin with. But some folks do find them helpful, so I’m happy to leave any strong opinions about where such marks should be placed entirely up to them. When it comes to fretless, a completely blank, position dotted, or lined neck are all the same to me. I’ve got one of each and I’m equally comfortable with all of them.

 

[IronLung1986]

I think we should just collectively admit that the point of unlined fretless is to flex on other bass players. It has no practical value that holds up to scrutiny. I mean let's be real. Everyone knows you don't just press directly on the line. Pressing a little behind the line is not some secret knowledge, nor does the presence of lines force anyone to press directly on them. Everyone knows where to put their finger relative to the line. This argument that lines make you play less in tune is absurd. How can having an additional point of reference make you play less in tune? It makes absolutely no sense. I think it's time to just let the unlined guys get the props they deserve for their incredible ears, which they actually don't even need since their unsurpassed muscle memory prevents them from missing any notes on those glorious pristine fingerboards in the first place. Well done to all of you! Truly. If you really don't miss notes on your unlined fretless then yes you deserve respect for the extra work that took and dare I say the natural talent you may possess. Now can we please close this archaic book for the love of God?

 

[4stringfarley]

my latest purchase I opted for mini ghost lines, and side dots. The dots although glow in the dark are in the standard placement. this allows me in the dark to quickly adjust to where I need to be. The mini lines allow for a more precise placement, and just look cooler than normal ghost lines. You can see the dot placement on the backside picture.

 

[Kael]

Every fretless bass guitar I have ever owned has the dots where they would be on a fretted instrument. Zero problems, total non-issue. In the interest of full disclosure I use lined instruments and think people who obsess over blank planks are placing esthetics over function. I can usually see the edge of the lines about comparable to my ability to see the edge of frets from the side of the neck. If you can use a bass looking at side dots and not the surface of the fingerboard, you can use a bass with the dots in the same spot as a fretted.

If you prefer dots elsewhere, cool. Roll with that.

 

[ProbablyTooLoud]

I have an unlined Rick with dots at the frets and fingerboard dots between where frets would be. Both help me triangulate my hand and fingers to find the correct pitch. I also have a lined G&L (dots between frets) and, honestly, I love the lines. They help a lot, especially further up the neck and on the D and G strings (four string player here). The side dots on both basses also help immensely with hand position. Hand position - i.e. having put in the time, fretted or fretless, to set your playing hand up to be dialed in to one finger one fret at the correct spot on the neck - is something Jim Stinnet points out as having a huge impact on being able to play fretless in tune, a factor many people ignore and/or rarely discuss.

 

[BassFalcon]

I think we should just collectively admit that the point of unlined fretless is to flex on other bass players. It has no practical value that holds up to scrutiny. I mean let's be real. Everyone knows you don't just press directly on the line. Pressing a little behind the line is not some secret knowledge, nor does the presence of lines force anyone to press directly on them. Everyone knows where to put their finger relative to the line. This argument that lines make you play less in tune is absurd. How can having an additional point of reference make you play less in tune? It makes absolutely no sense. I think it's time to just let the unlined guys get the props they deserve for their incredible ears, which they actually don't even need since their unsurpassed muscle memory prevents them from missing any notes on those glorious pristine fingerboards in the first place. Well done to all of you! Truly. If you really don't miss notes on your unlined fretless then yes you deserve respect for the extra work that took and dare I say the natural talent you may possess. Now can we please close this archaic book for the love of God?

I have no prejudice towards players with lines, whatever makes the player more comfortable, do it. I do dispute your claim that the only point of an unlined board is to flex though. Coming to Fretless from a DB background I’m simply more comfortable with an unlined board, much like some are more comfortable with a lined board. No flex. Also, for me the structural issues concern me. Slotting the board and filling it with a dis-similar material can invite trouble in terms of warping and stability, ive even seen where the fingerboard shrinks and then the lines of a different material end up proud of the fingerboard. I’m not saying it 100% will happen with ever single lined fretless, but putting in lines opens up the possibility for problems. @BurningSkies fretboard with the luminlay lines I would trust as that is a dimensionally stable material and looks incredibly well done, but, for instance, maple lines in an Ebony board I wouldn’t. Again, I’m not saying it will invite trouble but it increases the potential. Years and years ago I managed and worked in a repair shop. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. It’s rare, admittedly, but when I’m spending my own money on a Fretless bass, it’s not a risk I feel like taking. So there you go. Two legitimate “non-flexing” reasons to go unlined.

 

[Eilif]

I think we should just collectively admit that the point of unlined fretless is to flex on other bass players. It has no practical value that holds up to scrutiny. ...

... Now can we please close this archaic book for the love of God?

Sorry, but you're only half right, and I doubt you will be the one to close this book. Also you seem very frustrated by this thread which was both voluntary to read and comment upon.

You're right in that unlined has almost no practical value, though we have in the past heard from those who find the lines distracting as compared to dots. Any keen observer of bass guitars knows that there are many factors that have no practical value but we continue to value them anyway. Color choices, body/headstock shapes, adherence to "classic" Fender designs which are heavier and less ergonomic than later developments, wood selection, pickguards on instruments that might never be picked. All non-practical considerations that have a major impact on our buying choices.

I'm sure others will raise different objections but from my perspective what you missed is the aesthetic value of an unlined fretboard. I suspect I am not alone as someone who has a strong preference -in my case born of beginning on upright bass- for the beauty of an unmarred slab of beautiful fretboard wood. When investing in an instrument should not one acquire the most beauty they can afford? I had some intonation ability from upright studies that made an unlined fretless somewhat easier (though I'm still only an average fretless player), but 20 years and 3 fretlesses later it continues to be primarily an aesthetic choice.

No one would deny that there is something inherently impressive about an unlined fretless player. Especially one with high skills being observed by someone who has primarily only known fretted bass guitars. However, your attempt to classify unlined players as impractical show-offs and to end the discussion is incomplete and entirely unconvincing.

 

[BurningSkies]

I have no prejudice towards players with lines, whatever makes the player more comfortable, do it. I do dispute your claim that the only point of an unlined board is to flex though. Coming to Fretless from a DB background I’m simply more comfortable with an unlined board, much like some are more comfortable with a lined board. No flex. Also, for me the structural issues concern me. Slotting the board and filling it with a dis-similar material can invite trouble in terms of warping and stability, ive even seen where the fingerboard shrinks and then the lines of a different material end up proud of the fingerboard. I’m not saying it 100% will happen with ever single lined fretless, but putting in lines opens up the possibility for problems. @BurningSkies fretboard with the luminlay lines I would trust as that is a dimensionally stable material and looks incredibly well done, but, for instance, maple lines in an Ebony board I wouldn’t. Again, I’m not saying it will invite trouble but it increases the potential. Years and years ago I managed and worked in a repair shop. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. It’s rare, admittedly, but when I’m spending my own money on a Fretless bass, it’s not a risk I feel like taking. So there you go. Two legitimate “non-flexing” reasons to go unlined.

Yeah, this is why many luthiers making marked necks are more and more using smaller 'side lines' or dot patterns:

In my case, it was due to my Combustion being a conversion. I had an unused 'spare' and wanted to get back into fretless but didn't want to drop $5K+ to test the fanned fretless waters. Of course, in a way that only I can do it...I turned a bass that cost me $900 into a $3000 project.

I've now had mine for a couple years, and the neck has done admirably through very humid summers and very dry winters. I find that neck relief with fretless is super important and also tweaky because I like my basses set up as low as they can go, and when you're on that 'edge' a tiny little neck bow forward or back can make your bass either uncomfortable or unplayable.

Though, to get the the point of all that Luminlay wasn't easy and there's more to it than just the inlay material. The bass was first converted by a professional (ah, hrrrm) here in the region (someone who mostly does orchestral strings)...and it was not a great job. I couldn't get the action where I wanted it (both in correct true-ness but also because he refused to shim and the bridge was bottomed out). The inlay he worked with was boxwood...and it DID 'breathe'...To the point where some inlays expanded and at least one came unglued. After him taking a shot at re-fixing it correctly, I cut my losses. I'm also not sure that he did the discussed fretboard coating which would have been a HUGE help, and was the professional advice of Sheldon Dingwall, who I consulted with before the project.

...the bass went to one of the best. I shipped it to Maurilio Mina in California for a total neck re-do. He cut and drilled out all the lines and markers and did it right. Properly trued, the whole neck was re-finished in a very hard satin poly (and is one of the best feeling necks I've ever had) that seals the fretboard and also keeps the neck from being to humidity sensitive. The issue with the bridge was not only addressed but we also added a customized piezo setup, a second preamp and electronics to be able to use both or either, and adjust both magentic pickups and piezo effectively.

 

[franklindayala]

Hey, I know this topic has been discussed here before but I couldn't find an answer to one particular question.

Why are the fretless side dots often only on every other note...and if you are using the dots as a guideline then how are you suppose to do the same for the non-dotted note...is it just the middle between 2 dots...?

Thanks!

Also -- I know you should use your ears, so hoping to avoid that debate.

Practice with a tunner. Build your muscle memory and also ears.

 

[BurningSkies]

Practice with a tunner. Build your muscle memory and also ears.

I don't necessarily practice with a tuner, but I do on occasion plug one in and eyeball it here and there while I'm playing to verify that I'm on pitch. I also do the usual intervals and opens along the way to a make sure I'm together as well.

 

[Abner]

Why does every thread about fretless devolve into lined versus unlined? The question the OP asked (and has he/she been back since the first post? I think not...) was about accuracy of finger placement on an otherwise unmarked neck between the dots if all you have is dots on the typical 1, 3, 5, etc., positions. I think all of two posts pointed out that having dots at every position is even more confusing than having no dots.

"Unwatching" this thread...

 

[BassFalcon]

Yeah, this is why many luthiers making marked necks are more and more using smaller 'side lines' or dot patterns:

View attachment 4282535

In my case, it was due to my Combustion being a conversion. I had an unused 'spare' and wanted to get back into fretless but didn't want to drop $5K+ to test the fanned fretless waters. Of course, in a way that only I can do it...I turned a bass that cost me $900 into a $3000 project.

I've now had mine for a couple years, and the neck has done admirably through very humid summers and very dry winters. I find that neck relief with fretless is super important and also tweaky because I like my basses set up as low as they can go, and when you're on that 'edge' a tiny little neck bow forward or back can make your bass either uncomfortable or unplayable.

Though, to get the the point of all that Luminlay wasn't easy and there's more to it than just the inlay material. The bass was first converted by a professional (ah, hrrrm) here in the region (someone who mostly does orchestral strings)...and it was not a great job. I couldn't get the action where I wanted it (both in correct true-ness but also because he refused to shim and the bridge was bottomed out). The inlay he worked with was boxwood...and it DID 'breathe'...To the point where some inlays expanded and at least one came unglued. After him taking a shot at re-fixing it correctly, I cut my losses. I'm also not sure that he did the discussed fretboard coating which would have been a HUGE help, and was the professional advice of Sheldon Dingwall, who I consulted with before the project.

...the bass went to one of the best. I shipped it to Maurilio Mina in California for a total neck re-do. He cut and drilled out all the lines and markers and did it right. Properly trued, the whole neck was re-finished in a very hard satin poly (and is one of the best feeling necks I've ever had) that seals the fretboard and also keeps the neck from being to humidity sensitive. The issue with the bridge was not only addressed but we also added a customized piezo setup, a second preamp and electronics to be able to use both or either, and adjust both magentic pickups and piezo effectively.

Wow! Great story!!! Sorry to hear about the beginning, but it sure ended up about as nice as you can get! Despite my appreciation and preference for unlined boards, I do like the trend I’m seeing that you mentions with just the tiny little ghost lines on the side. I think it’s Sandburg that does that, then at the 12th the tiny lines transition across the fingerboard and the last octave is on the treble side. Looks really slick. Adamovic and a few others may be doing it like that now, I forget. But it looks cool. Never played one with that, but I can’t see it being a playability or stability issue.

 

[IronLung1986]

I have no prejudice towards players with lines, whatever makes the player more comfortable, do it. I do dispute your claim that the only point of an unlined board is to flex though. Coming to Fretless from a DB background I’m simply more comfortable with an unlined board, much like some are more comfortable with a lined board. No flex. Also, for me the structural issues concern me. Slotting the board and filling it with a dis-similar material can invite trouble in terms of warping and stability, ive even seen where the fingerboard shrinks and then the lines of a different material end up proud of the fingerboard. I’m not saying it 100% will happen with ever single lined fretless, but putting in lines opens up the possibility for problems. @BurningSkies fretboard with the luminlay lines I would trust as that is a dimensionally stable material and looks incredibly well done, but, for instance, maple lines in an Ebony board I wouldn’t. Again, I’m not saying it will invite trouble but it increases the potential. Years and years ago I managed and worked in a repair shop. I’ve seen it with my own eyes. It’s rare, admittedly, but when I’m spending my own money on a Fretless bass, it’s not a risk I feel like taking. So there you go. Two legitimate “non-flexing” reasons to go unlined.

Yes the issue of the lines becoming proud is absolutely true. I should have clarified in my post that I meant unlined boards grant no objective benefit to your playing. Structurally there are some legitimate concerns to having lines. The lines on my Pedulla are becoming proud as we speak. It sucks. You have to really keep the guitar's humidity regulated, which is hard for us New Englanders since everything radically changes all the time. I've started using the D'Addario Humidipaks. If I end up having to redo the board well I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Woulda been nice to know about that issue before buying the bass, and it almost definitely would have made me buy an unlined to be honest. But it would have had nothing to do with coming on forums and telling people to develop their ears and work on their mechanics because lines are a crutch and so forth.

 

[BurningSkies]

Wow! Great story!!! Sorry to hear about the beginning, but it sure ended up about as nice as you can get! Despite my appreciation and preference for unlined boards, I do like the trend I’m seeing that you mentions with just the tiny little ghost lines on the side. I think it’s Sandburg that does that, then at the 12th the tiny lines transition across the fingerboard and the last octave is on the treble side. Looks really slick. Adamovic and a few others may be doing it like that now, I forget. But it looks cool. Never played one with that, but I can’t see it being a playability or stability issue.

When you're playing and not craning out over the neck that's mostly what mine looks like from what I'm seeing. But in reality even though I'd played an unmarked fretless with only dots previously, and I've been playing 34-37" fans for over 15 years exclusively, I thought having a full visual reference might be a good move. Now that I've done it for a few years, I feel like the ghost lines at the top of the neck are enough. The Dingwall I posted has them at the bottom too, but I can't really believe they're even visible to you from playing perspective.

The guy who did the job first...I thought he'd be a good fit, working on lots of violins, cellos, uprights, etc. But in the end I feel like he sort of didn't put in the same attention to detail and/or focus to the job. I literally got the instrument home and after two days did a full setup of my own and the intonation could have been described as hardly even roughed in.

I also have a fretless 6 that's parallel, but moving back and forth between a 35" parallel fretless and the fanned just is more trouble than it's worth. Also, if I were to do a parallel 6 ever again, it would be a 34" scale...the C always sounds out of timbre with the rest of the bass.

 

[BassFalcon]

Yes the issue of the lines becoming proud is absolutely true. I should have clarified in my post that I meant unlined boards grant no objective benefit to your playing. Structurally there are some legitimate concerns to having lines. The lines on my Pedulla are becoming proud as we speak. It sucks. You have to really keep the guitar's humidity regulated, which is hard for us New Englanders since everything radically changes all the time. I've started using the D'Addario Humidipaks. If I end up having to redo the board well I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. Woulda been nice to know about that issue before buying the bass, and it almost definitely would have made me buy an unlined to be honest. But it would have had nothing to do with coming on forums and telling people to develop their ears and work on their mechanics because lines are a crutch and so forth.

I’m a Midwesterner, I totally get you on the humidity thing! Are your lines popping up even with the DiamondKote or whatever Pedulla’s famous fingerboard finish is, or does yours have a different finish? Also, I agree that unlined has no objective benefit to your playing, but also no detriment as well. really it’s just preference and there is no right or wrong, only what’s right for you. Which changes sometimes too.

 

[IronLung1986]

I’m a Midwesterner, I totally get you on the humidity thing! Are your lines popping up even with the DiamondKote or whatever Pedulla’s famous fingerboard finish is, or does yours have a different finish? Also, I agree that unlined has no objective benefit to your playing, but also no detriment as well. really it’s just preference and there is no right or wrong, only what’s right for you. Which changes sometimes too.

Yep it's the original Pedulla polyester. I think he should have been painting the lines on to be honest. The finish would have prevented the paint from rubbing off and the entire issue would have been negated. Mine is not to the point of affecting playability but I've had to file down a few spots that started to bubble up too much.

 

[Sasha Blanton]

Why does every thread about fretless devolve into lined versus unlined? The question the OP asked (and has he/she been back since the first post? I think not...) was about accuracy of finger placement on an otherwise unmarked neck between the dots if all you have is dots on the typical 1, 3, 5, etc., positions. I think all of two posts pointed out that having dots at every position is even more confusing than having no dots.

"Unwatching" this thread...

I think I got my answer...the rest I'm just absorbing. I personally have side markers and it's fine...intonation is good enough. Also I often play my fretless with an Eventide effect on which has a chorus that is slightly delayed which naturally makes it sound a but out is tune...in a way that I enjoy.

 

[Gilmourisgod]

I had Pedulla put the Diamondkote on my Warmoth fretless neck, ebony with maple lines, around 1987, and it shows very little wear and no finish separation. The maple lines are still perfectly flush too. I think the problem with plastic lines is that they don’t move, but the wood board does, doesn’t seem to happen with wood lines. A company called HG Thor does the closest thing to the Diamondkote I’ve seen, not sure if it’s polyester or epoxy.

 

[FretlessOwl]

I thought all fretless basses that were not a result of being defretted lined or not had side dots on the proper position for intonation help. This is new to me that some of these makers would do something sadistic/stupid as that specially if the thing was unlined. Ibanez! really?

I've got an older Ibanez Soundgear fretless I've modded that is side-dotted perfectly. I guess it's just the Portamento line that's hyperactively marked. Hopefully, anyway.

 

[Spectre Gunner]

How do we determine "most"? Just personal experience? Because I would also disagree with this. Unless you are talking about a lined fretless. Every unlined board I've seen has dots on the notes. Rickenbacker and some Fender Jazz basses have been mentioned, but that's only two.

Fender has been making Fretless basses with side dots both ways. The Jaco sig bass has the side dots between the frets since that replicates his original bass. The Tony Franklin has the side dot aligned with the fret position. I personally would have a hard time with the Jaco bass.