Funk is ending up like the Blues

[ElMon]

Random aside:

I've always felt that Funkadelic was leaning more towards Jimi Hendrix inspired funk-rock, and Parliament is more true-to-form, genre-defining and expanding FUNK. All in caps. Just my opinion.

 

[Brad Johnson]

The Average White Band has nothing in common with Vulfpeck besides skin color. AWB was at it’s best playing med tempo mid tempo to nearly slow grooves like these:

AWB was a great funk band. And you're spot on... they had the patience to be able to compose and play funk that was nowhere near as frenetic as today's fare.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Random aside:

I've always felt that Funkadelic was leaning more towards Jimi Hendrix inspired funk-rock, and Parliament is more true-to-form, genre-defining and expanding FUNK. All in caps. Just my opinion.

A friend expressed that exact sentiment in a conversation this morning.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I am not in a position to deeply debate this, but I think there is more to the origin of Rap than the decline in music funding in many school systems. I think that more than anything else, it was time for a paradigm shift.

Sure, there's more to it but I think the decline in music programs was a big part of it. It affected a lot of the arts.

Would the shift to sampling be the impetus? Early rap started with instruments and musicians. Maybe less people learning to play was coincidental but I doubt it.

 

[ElMon]

I guess this is the original?....I like it.......alot

I guess this is the original?....I like it.......alot

That's a cool track, I just don't consider it FONK.

This whole discussion reminds me of a common musical trend (I think I mentioned this earlier but it bears repeating)

• White musicians in Britain/USA try to emulate black blues tradition. Not possible due to all kinds of cultural/musical reasons, but ... they create a new genre. I like both results.
• The more-palatable-to-white-audiences version sells a gajillion records
• Some white musicians nail the flavor of the genre, but they're typically as obscure as the genuine articles who pioneered the genre.

I think that formula repeats itself again and again in all sorts of genres. Vulfpeck is interesting, but it doesn't make me have that 'I just smelled something stanky face'. It's just different than what I consider pure FONK.

In the end it's all good, but the hyperbole and the 'you don't get it' gets tired.
I had my own version of this when my Mom heard me bumping the Chili Peppers version of 'Higher Ground', and she sat my @$$ down and put some Stevie on. way different. Better IMO.

 

[10cc]

You don't have to be German to play Beethoven well. Same goes for any musical "style" - one of the things I like about playing in the churches I do is there are people who's ancestors are from all over the globe on stage with me, and regardless of what style music we're playing, we're brothers and sisters doing something together (and doing it darn well, most of the time).

Yep.

 

[ElMon]

A friend expressed that exact sentiment in a conversation this morning.

Their farewell tour band is smokin by the way. Lige Curry killed it. They did a version of 'Cosmic Slop' that brought tears to mine eye.

Also a reminder to me of how vocal-heavy this band was/is. George's kinfolk blend really well together. Great show if you have a chance to catch it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

Dear, i repeat what I said before .. this place has got rules governing it ... feel free to report any act I made that you believe may have led to an infringement of the above-mentioned rules ... it is certainly not source of much enjoyment for me to interact with you sometimes ... however, I may have to reply to or comment your posts on a case-specific basis.

No, you don't have to reply to any of my posts not directed towards you and I'll do the same. Reporting is largely pointless here, as I am reminded on a regular basis. I just reported some behavior and got blamed for it.

You have trolled me several times in the past for no apparent reason other than appearing to enjoy it. So have a lot of TBers who don't care for my opinions, even when I'm not talking to them. That's why I asked that you stop.

Forget about it.

 

[Brad Johnson]

That's a cool track, I just don't consider it FONK.

This whole discussion reminds me of a common musical trend (I think I mentioned this earlier but it bears repeating)

• White musicians in Britain/USA try to emulate black blues tradition. Not possible due to all kinds of cultural/musical reasons, but ... they create a new genre. I like both results.
• The more-palatable-to-white-audiences version sells a gajillion records
• Some white musicians nail the flavor of the genre, but they're typically as obscure as the genuine articles who pioneered the genre.

I think that formula repeats itself again and again in all sorts of genres. Vulfpeck is interesting, but it doesn't make me have that 'I just smelled something stanky face'. It's just different than what I consider pure FONK.

In the end it's all good, but the hyperbole and the 'you don't get it' gets tired.
I had my own version of this when my Mom heard me bumping the Chili Peppers version of 'Higher Ground', and she sat my @$$ down and put some Stevie on. way different. Better IMO.

Cool mom.

Stevie on clavinet is funk.

 

[John Metta]

I am not in a position to deeply debate this, but I think there is more to the origin of Rap than the decline in music funding in many school systems. I think that more than anything else, it was time for a paradigm shift.

I can't write everything here (because I've probably already bored everyone), but I address it in my essay. You are absolutely correct! That was very much a part--and the shift was toward a musicality founded in African rhythmic poetry traditions of The Griot as a argument to the historically Eurocentric musical history of the country. I'm old enough to remember being a Black kid in the 70s who was writing rap songs and thinking "This is *our* music." You're absolutely correct.

 

[Grahams Groove]

I think the most surprising thing in this thread is seeing how much nostalgia can convince people that nothing good has been done since the time-period they personally hold in highest regard musically. I'm willing to bet that the folks saying things like "ain't what it used to be" or "never can have the feel it did" or "it's just a regurgitation of what's been done already" are woefully unfamiliar with some of funk music that has been made during the last couple decades.

Part of this, I suspect, has to do with the context of 'popular music' then and now. James Brown, Parliament, AWB, just to name a few, were charting and getting airplay with their records/singles in an era where that style of music was fairly popular. In comparison, funk music and variations on funk music are largely on the fringes or are successful only within groups of music listeners who may not be your typical 'top 40' consumers. I think you can find it still, but you need to know where to search.

Finally, I think there's a have your cake and eat it too mentality going on with some of the critics. In one breath I'm hearing "it's unoriginal and sounds like stuff that's been done before". Then someone posts a video of something newer with an original take on funk, and they're getting hit with "that doesn't have the feel and sound of classic funk". Seems like a very narrow lane to navigate if you expect original, boundary-pushing music within the funk style, but you need it to sound/feel like your favorite classics in order to call it valid...

 

[Christcr]

I actually wrote an Invalid Link Removed. Unfortunately, many who see Hip Hop without that context treat it as if people (originally "Black people") simply didn't care about learning actual music and decided to lazily just talk over a beat. The actual history is much more complex, especially given the history in America of Black musicianship.

Black musicians have dominated American musical genre creation since the beginning of the country. That almost came to a grinding halt in the 70s. The reality is that an entire generation of Black youth wanted desperately to create "real" music. Unfortunately, inner city educational funding cuts meant music programs and access to musical instrumentation was essentially destroyed in underprivileged communities throughout the country, so there was simply no access to instruments or to teachers.

It's actually rather remarkable that a musically lost generation, with nothing more than tape recorders, buckets, and their mouths still managed to create an entire musical genre. Far from just talking over a beat, Rap sprung from a deep and intense need of inner city kids to make music and to bring poetry and storytelling to life in a musical manner--even if they had no way to make the music to accompany it. They simply chose the cultural foundation of rhythm instead of melody to do it because that's the tools they had.

Of course, there's the argument that String Band music and The Blues was developed without a lot of musical instruction, but the reality is that by the time Rock and Jazz came around, that kind of instrument heavy music had evolved enough that proper musicianship was necessary if you had instruments. You couldn't create a musical style by hammering out simple melodies the way African spirituals could be hammered out on a guitar anymore.

Within its historical context, Hip Hop is one of the most incredible expressions of musical development the country has ever seen. It's not simply a choice of "talking over a beat," it was a choice to force the creation of music even when it otherwise seemed impossible, using nothing but poetry, rhythm, and the cultural memory of The Griot. It's pretty amazing, actually.

That said, you might still not like the way it hits your ears. Different people have different tastes and that's fine. But writing it off as "talking over a beat" implies a lack of respect for its history and musicality that would be unfortunate.

None of that changes my opinion of it. It wouldn't matter to me if hiphop required a PhD to master. Other generations have been in the same boat (black generations as well). Ever hear doo-wop? That's actual music with melody and harmony that was largely done with nothing besides a few voices harmonizing well on a streetcorner.

My opinion is the opposite of yours. I think hiphop has essentially ruined pop music. It's the main reason I rarely listen to popular modern music these days--because that "sound" is infused into the music of so many otherwise talented groups of musicians. So, like I said, I continue to seek out musicians/groups who never or rarely put any significant hiphop "pageantry" into their music. Vulfpeck was mentioned. Snarky Puppy has some funk at times. Other genres, as I said, Greta Van Fleet, also prog metal Mammoth (Wes Thrailkill), quite a number of "math rock" groups, bands like Blackberry Smoke (which I really love). All more retro influenced stuff rather than hiphop influenced stuff.

Luckily there are enough folks/musicians out there who share my opinion and steer clear of hiphop most of the time.

 

[ElMon]

Cool mom.

Stevie on clavinet is funk.

I had neck issues after his show here in OKC. Voice gone from singing along to 'Songs in the Key of Life'.

Between her and my dad making me listen to Rick James' 'Street Songs', I didn't stand a chance!! Going back to the 'what happened to the youngsters' convo:

When I was coming up, I was obsessed with playing along to the recordings and trying to nail ... exactly ... the phrasing/feel of James Brown/Motown/Stevie/Curtis Mayfield tracks/etc. I run into a lot of younger musicians that learn the skeleton of a classic funk/blues/R&B song, but they don't pick up the feel. Seems like they go to youtube clips of some other bass player mimicking the original track, but don't go to the source.


Very anecdotal.

Good luck trying to get an OKC band to play the B section of 'Living For the City', and God forbid you try to play the 2nd/3rd (and IMO way cooler) sections of 'Chameleon'.

I'm just grateful that I had older musicians who kicked my musical @$$.

 

[Dyna LowRider]

If you dig funk and haven't heard this band before , check out "Dumpstaphunk".... 2 bassists in this outfit .
Lots of videos on YouTube .

 

[Brad Johnson]

I had neck issues after his show here in OKC. Voice gone from singing along to 'Songs in the Key of Life'.

Between her and my dad making me listen to Rick James' 'Street Songs', I didn't stand a chance!! Going back to the 'what happened to the youngsters' convo:

When I was coming up, I was obsessed with playing along to the recordings and trying to nail ... exactly ... the phrasing/feel of James Brown/Motown/Stevie/Curtis Mayfield tracks/etc. I run into a lot of younger musicians that learn the skeleton of a classic funk/blues/R&B song, but they don't pick up the feel. Seems like they go to youtube clips of some other bass player mimicking the original track, but don't go to the source.


Very anecdotal.

Good luck trying to get an OKC band to play the B section of 'Living For the City', and God forbid you try to play the 2nd/3rd (and IMO way cooler) sections of 'Chameleon'.

I'm just grateful that I had older musicians who kicked my musical @$$.

There's a second and third section to Chameleon?


I have fun when people ask me to play the bass part... and I do.

 

[ElMon]

There's a second and third section to Chameleon?


I have fun when people ask me to play the bass part... and I do.

LOL!!

If you've attempted (key term) to learn Paul Jackson lines, it'll change you, and your funk will not come out sounding like Vulfpeck. IMHO (not so humble perhaps) opinion.

 

[GregC]

I'm late to the party (it's been a busy few days), but I've followed this thread. A pretty good discussion for the most part. Here's my take on some of the (IMO) generalizations being thrown around about Vulfpeck. For background, I'm 55 and pretty well-versed in the sacred '70s funk "canon." (Cue the choir of angels.)

First off, they're not focused on trying to replicate the stanky/greasy/dirty/nasty/insertyouradjectivehere '70s hardcore funk sound (nor should they, IMO). That's been done as well as it's going to be. If Vulfpeck went that route, wouldn't TB just accuse them of being Greta Van Funk? And anyone who has listened to more than a couple Vulfpeck songs (not sure that many here have) would find a pretty wide range of styles--frenetic "funky" jams (I'm not interested in the funk/not funk debate, so quotation marks used), Jackson 5-style pop, soul ballads, rock-type raveups, slow grooves, goofy weirdness, etc. Don't put Vulf in a corner!

Not enough use of space/too many notes, you say? Pshaw! In a number of their songs, Joe lays back and provides fills as needed. This has become more true as the band has increasingly recorded songs with vocals. I'm not going to claim they're all funk by any means, but again Vulfpeck is arguably more versatile than their rep implies.





Live is where they really bring it, by the way. And some folks say there's no emotion or "realness" in their songs? Maybe they haven't heard this one. (Caution, there is a bass solo.) The coda was added for the live version.


Another example is "Outro", which was posted a couple pages back. I could post many more examples, but I'm going to move on.

Quantized, too clean? Maybe in some respects. There's very little distortion used. They also very rarely cuss (never in their songs). I'm no prude, but I think it's kind of cool and contrarian that they do it that way. As for quantized, they record everything within just a few takes, and as much of it as possible is live/at the same time. Maybe it sounds uber-produced because they're so tight? They do make heavy use of compression, though.

The fanbase has been accused of being ignorant of classic funk, and I think it's also been claimed that new bands (Vulfpeck was implied, since it was in this thread) pretend they're the first to do this stuff. Honestly, I find this train of thought pretty laughable. Vulfpeck has recorded with and/or jammed live with Bootsy (an especially vocal supporter of the band), Bernard Purdie, Zigaboo Modeliste, James Gadson, and David T. Walker, among others. Now just because those funk legends dig Vulfpeck doesn't mean everyone has to like them or think they're "real funk" or whatever. But if you want to know what those folks think of Vulfpeck and whether Vulfpeck shows respect to the old-school guys, there you go.

 

[Brad Johnson]

I think the most surprising thing in this thread is seeing how much nostalgia can convince people that nothing good has been done since the time-period they personally hold in highest regard musically. I'm willing to bet that the folks saying things like "ain't what it used to be" or "never can have the feel it did" or "it's just a regurgitation of what's been done already" are woefully unfamiliar with some of funk music that has been made during the last couple decades.

I'm equally willing to bet that in many cases you're wrong. If you think something is funky, it is. For you. If I think it isn't, it isn't for me. It's not really that complicated. And I haven't seen anyone contend that it can "never have the feel it did" so that speaks to bias.

The assumption that people must be unfamiliar isn't exactly surprising. People are listening to examples in this thread and giving their opinions on it. Most of what has been posted is very familiar to me... if there's some treasure trove out there point us to it. Hopefully it does better than most of these examples.

Part of this, I suspect, has to do with the context of 'popular music' then and now. James Brown, Parliament, AWB, just to name a few, were charting and getting airplay with their records/singles in an era where that style of music was fairly popular. In comparison, funk music and variations on funk music are largely on the fringes or are successful only within groups of music listeners who may not be your typical 'top 40' consumers. I think you can find it still, but you need to know where to search.

Cool. Where? Because the places I've looked have been pretty bleak.

Finally, I think there's a have your cake and eat it too mentality going on with some of the critics. In one breath I'm hearing "it's unoriginal and sounds like stuff that's been done before". Then someone posts a video of something newer with an original take on funk, and they're getting hit with "that doesn't have the feel and sound of classic funk". Seems like a very narrow lane to navigate if you expect original, boundary-pushing music within the funk style, but you need it to sound/feel like your favorite classics in order to call it valid...

It might seem like a narrow lane to you... but suppose for a minute that it's true.


Again, I don't see anyone demanding that new stuff sound like old stuff. IMO most seems like a pale imitation, you can have all the right ingredients except an intangible and the stew might not taste as good.

Much of the earlier funk didn't have the same feel as other funk so that was hardly a requirement then and it isn't now either.

 

[Brad Johnson]

LOL!!

If you've attempted (key term) to learn Paul Jackson lines, it'll change you, and your funk will not come out sounding like Vulfpeck. IMHO (not so humble perhaps) opinion.

I have. One of the most unique musicians ever IMO. It can be almost painful to hear others try.


I take inspiration from him, Rocco, Jamerson, etc. but I don't try to copy them.

 

[GregC]

@Dr. Cheese vulpeck is not the future of funk. bands like Soulive and Lettuce are the future and holders of the funk. vulfpeck opens for those bands, vulfpeck is not even that big of a band, they just get a lot of hits on here because they have a great bassist. The jam band circuit is STOCKED full of funk bands and groups that are carrying the funk flame. Also the whole new orleans scene is all funk, Trombone Shorty, Dumpstafunk, George Porter and his running pardners, Galactic, etc, they are immenently more funky than vulfpeck and have been around a lot longer and are way more successful.

I have no interest in debating which bands are truly funk, but in terms of success, Vulfpeck is right there with Lettuce IMO. They sold out Red Rocks last year and again already for their date this year. They've played a number of other venues in the US and Europe in the 2K+ range. By the way, I saw Krasno play a couple songs with Vulfpeck in Central Park a couple years ago, that was fun.