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GBE1200 Power Ratings...

#101
I don't know what they are talking about in that magazine.
I used my gbe1200 into a 2 ohm load at a large outside festival gig last week. In Texas.. The ambient air was 107 degrees!!!.
Of course the amp stayed cool.. It did last summer too.
I was playing through FOUR Aggy GS112s.. LOUDLY.. The amp was used as back line for all bands that day.
Not a hiccup at all.. One of the bass players normally plays a GK1001, one an svt5 and another normally plays a LM2. They commented that they would sell their rigs to get a GBE1200 after playing mine for an hour in real world gigs.. Two of them told me the 1200 was louder, fuller and more clear than their rigs, so they say. It was unsolicited and i have to believe them.
Yes there was Pro Soundgear with Pro Power Distribution , it was a real gig.

I was last to use my rig that day.. I think there may be quirks with the magazines testing methods or something.... because my amp is almost flawless. The only issue is that there are no black lines on the adjustment knobs so its hard to see settings.. especially when 6 other guys use your amp in one day and you are last..
But that is a NON issue thing..

And my GBE1200 easily keeps up with my Crown rig.. And I know the GK , LM2 doesn't even come close to the crown amp.. Not even close!

Thank you agedhorse for that commentary.. its very informative as usual.
 
#102
svtb15 said:
I don't know what they are talking about in that magazine.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry to hear that. We did try to explain our testing methods and our results as well as well could. I do stand by our measurements, though I have pointed out repeatedly that this is not the whole story.

If you read the 'use and listening' portion of the review, the GBE 1200 (and NEOX-212T) got a very positive review, and both scored fairly well. Looking at the big picture, I think both reviews should be viewed as favorable for Genz-Benz.

Tom.
 
#103
All I know is that the GBE1200 was the loudest single amp I've ever played. That's in about a 10 year span and amp changes ranging in the double digits. Whatever the tests say, my ears still say it was incredibly loud, and it was loud enough to bring my neighbors from about 300 yards down the street to my house to ask me to turn down; this with only a DB112. I've never had that problem before or since.

I don't think anyone should count out or in any amp based on these reviews. Please do yourself a favor and try them all out with an open mind.

Tom, thanks for the work your doing, I'm digging it.

GB folks- Ditto, you are an excellent company that makes excellent products, please continue to do so!

Dan
 
#105
No need to be so defensive. :smug::)

I stand by what i said since it was
#1 in real world use across a broad spectrum of players and
#2 It was used in a torturing environment.
But thank you for contributing with your magazine, it is greatly appreciated.


tombowlus said:
I'm sorry to hear that. We did try to explain our testing methods and our results as well as well could. I do stand by our measurements, though I have pointed out repeatedly that this is not the whole story.

If you read the 'use and listening' portion of the review, the GBE 1200 (and NEOX-212T) got a very positive review, and both scored fairly well. Looking at the big picture, I think both reviews should be viewed as favorable for Genz-Benz.

Tom.
Click to expand...
 
#106
Tom,

No need to respond to me here, but I think at this point we're just wondering if the test format might be unfavorable to some designs. I can't answer that as I'm not a person who knows enough to comment. If you guys only do one kind of test that tells one side of the story as you have said, and that side of the story doesn't tell the parts of the story that really matter for a particular unit (as you've also mentioned right in the article), then perhaps there is a test that you could include that would tell the other side? I'd think that kind of coverage would make sense not only in this case, but for other products you are sure to review moving forward.

Going back to Roger's car analogy, could this be analogous to testing a Ford F350 Powerstroke for it's top speed and not determining the actual payload it can handle? Or testing the RX7 for it's towing capacity?

I'm just thinking out loud here...
 
#107
sevenorchids said:
Except that they have caused some TB'ers to basically state that the folks at Genz Benz are, at best, exagerrating and, at worse, lying to the public about their power ratings...

That, I would say, is a very sad byproduct of this.
Click to expand...

+1 I totally agree. In fact, it is my firm position that Genz-Benz is not exaggerating or misstating their specs. It only takes 23 seconds of talking to Andy to realize that he is a top-notch engineer at the top of his game. I believe that their numbers (and ours) are 100% valid. However, our test methodology was different than theirs, and hence the different numerical results.

But, as several folks have pointed out, it is the real-world performance which really matters, and my first-hand experience with this amp was that it performs exceptionally well in a real-world gigging environment.

Tom.
 
#108
Eublet said:
Tom,

No need to respond to me here, but I think at this point we're just wondering if the test format might be unfavorable to some designs. I can't answer that as I'm not a person who knows enough to comment. If you guys only do one kind of test that tells one side of the story as you have said, and that side of the story doesn't tell the parts of the story that really matter for a particular unit (as you've also mentioned right in the article), then perhaps there is a test that you could include that would tell the other side? I'd think that kind of coverage would make sense not only in this case, but for other products you are sure to review moving forward.
Click to expand...

We looked into testing for dynamic power, and in fact, it was one of the tests that I wanted to publish from the very get go. But, my wish-list of tests/charts/graphs/data got trimmed down a good bit by the practicalities of how much information is useful, versus how much is too much. Plus, we only have so much room (though, as you can tell, I like to push that envelope!). Because of these practical considerations, and because of the additional complexities involved with doing dynamic power testing (the right way), we did decide to drop that particular test. Similarly, I had some grandiose ideas involving harmonic content, but they were very complicated, and not very practical, either.

Tom.
 
#109
tombowlus said:
We looked into testing for dynamic power, and in fact, it was one of the tests that I wanted to publish from the very get go. But, my wish-list of tests/charts/graphs/data got trimmed down a good bit by the practicalities of how much information is useful, versus how much is too much. Plus, we only have so much room (though, as you can tell, I like to push that envelope!). Because of these practical considerations, and because of the additional complexities involved with doing dynamic power testing (the right way), we did decide to drop that particular test. Similarly, I had some grandiose ideas involving harmonic content, but they were very complicated, and not very practical, either.

Tom.
Click to expand...
Thanks, Tom. I hope I don't sound incriminating as that's certainly not my intent.

While I can understand the need to streamline the information, it seems that those additional test would make sense, especially for products that claim certain features that only those additional tests would show. Maybe for those products, you could reduce the information published from your more standard tests and give extra info on the additional tests that demonstrate whether or not the manufacturers claims are factual.

Again, no need to respond as I'm just thinking outloud.
 
#112
This is a great thread;)

Clearly, the guys at BGM who are bench testing this stuff are smarter than me; and they've developed a pretty decent testing regime.

Perfect?

Maybe not, but fairly comprehensive, and all amps are bench tested the same. And real world tested as well, which is nice.

Equally clearly, a lot of this stuff is over my head: an EE I'm not. But, I can get a look at those numbers and get some idea of what's going on.

Also equally clearly, to me...having field tested most of this stuff, I can say the numbers back what I've heard in the field.

I ran a GBE750. It didn't work for me, my goals, my uses-dynamic headroom or not.
Conversely, I've been really happy with both my TFB420 and Mesa Walkabout-both of which "spec lower on paper."
But, my needs are probably different than yours, and if the GBE works for you-kicka**...it's nice to have sooo many great choices. We sure didn't used to.

This is all very interesting and informative, and bench racing is always fun, whether it's cars, motorcycle or bass amps!

Lastly, it's also clear to me that if something gets reviewed-whether by BGM, BP or whomever-and "gets called out," but does the job to your satisfaction in the field or studio...then by all means, let your ears be the final arbiter.

"If it sounds good, it is good!"
 
#113
Eublet said:
Are you sure it's not your curiosity instead? :D
Click to expand...

I don't think any amplifier will help me with my playing skills :eek:
but my new bass was a great place to start :D

HPIM7327.jpg
 
#114
First, congrats on a great magazine. I signed up for the printed mag as soon as I finished the first issue online. :)

I read the test on the GBE 1200, and found it interesting. As usual, I skipped most of the technical stuff as I have zero knowledge in that departement.

As a long time bassist and audiophile though, I have learned that measurements are pretty much worthless, especially when it comes to watts. Real life performance is what counts. Just compare a 100w Krell with a 300w NAD through a good CD player and ditto speakers, and tell me which you think sounds "better", AND most importantly has more control in the low end. :D

The GB1200 really looks like a bargain to me, and if I didn't have a TFB750-A on the way, a Genz might very well be my next amp.
 
#115
svtb15 said:
No need to be so defensive. :smug::)

I stand by what i said since it was
#1 in real world use across a broad spectrum of players and
#2 It was used in a torturing environment.
But thank you for contributing with your magazine, it is greatly appreciated.
Click to expand...

OT - Hey Kirk!

Call me man...I haven't spoken to you for a while...did you move??

Oh, sorry to derail...please carry on...

Back on topic - Love my GBE 1200...the numbers are all over my head...but my ears like GB a lot...and that's what I go by...I mean they are interesting to look at...but at the end of the day...it's all about tone and volume...and the GBE 1200 has way plenty of both...

Tom is a cool guy, great player and knowledgable about gear in general...I have signed up to get the online magizine and look forward to future issues!...I believe Tom when he says these are the numbers he and his guys came up with for the testing methodology they used...I do wish they would have had a chance to discuss methodology with the guys at Genz Benz before they did the testing (by no one in particulars fault...just timing)...this entire debate may have been avioded...

Also, In my experience, the guys at Genz Benz is that they are top notch in every aspect of business that I have had the privilage of dealing with them on...business accumen, customer service, support, etc...you name it...Andy has stated their testing methodology and I believe them too!

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the GB products are tested to exacting specifications and company set high quality parameters...and that they strive to put out the best possible products for the music equipment consumer (that means across their entire product line).

Gerry
 
#118
sevenorchids said:
Except that they have caused some TB'ers to basically state that the folks at Genz Benz are, at best, exagerrating and, at worse, lying to the public about their power ratings...

That, I would say, is a very sad byproduct of this.
Click to expand...
You can't control people from having knee-jerk reactions based on a lack of information. That's why we should should always ask, instead of accuse.
 
#119
Chef said:
and all amps are bench tested the same.
Click to expand...
This is where I have a problem... I can guarantee that the AC input terminal will vary as a function of current draw which is a function of output power. A large amp with high current capacity and an oversized power supply will cause the AC line voltage to sag more on an inadequate AC supply and this will directly (and greatly) affect the measured power output. The larger the amp. the greater this decrepency will be.

Additionally, on a lower feedback power amplifier with tube amp like characteristics, knowing when the power amp actually clips required knowing what exactly is happening as this takes place. There are ways to determine this but a casual glance may be very incorrect.

Regarding output power versus frequency, again the actual maximum output power was not used but instead the response was referenced to some arbitrary point and any preamp voicing (in our case an intentional rolloff) was subtracted from the reference point. This is no different than a frequency response plot of the preamp itself.

I hope to discuss this more with Tom so that everyone may benefit from a more uniform and useful technical testing platform.
 
#120
My point being that I think BGM bench test all their stuff at the same place, with the same methodology.

The makes a level felid for all, at least if I'm understanding the procedure correctly.


''''quote agedhorse:
I can guarantee that the AC input terminal will vary as a function of current draw which is a function of output power. A large amp with high current capacity and an oversized power supply will cause the AC line voltage to sag more on an inadequate AC supply and this will directly (and greatly) affect the measured power output. The larger the amp. the greater this decrepency will be.'''''''''

I think this would be true in the field where most would be used as well. I suppose it might skew performance stats some, but no more than playing in ClubLand full of crappy power would.
 

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