Genz Benz Shuttle 9.0 discussion thread

[bamabass]

Hey guys, I saw it asked before but I did not see an answer. Does anyone know the dimensions of the footswitch for the 9.0? I am trying to get my pedal board organized and would like one of these, if I can get it to fit...Thanks!

 

[bassman blue]

Hey Bamabass, apparently the footswitches are 12 inches long by 3 inches wide.

Just for others info, apparently the the Shuttle 6.0 footswitch will work with the Shuttle 9.0.

 

[Mike Shevlin]

I'm back! Not all the way back, but back! Happy New Year guys... have good gigs. I'm on the road for New Year's, playing in Kansas City.

Just in time for my 'For Ken Jung Only 2010 NAMM Report'~

 

[KJung]

Just in time for my 'For Ken Jung Only 2010 NAMM Report'~

Hey Mike! I look forward to it. Will and I were thinking about heading out there, but I think we both ran out of 'gear-itis' a bit this year. I'll look forward to hearing about the 'good, the bad, and the ugly'!

I'm off in 20 minutes... ROAD TRIP!

 

[DJJazzV]

Sounds good in my Boogie Walkabout Scout cabinet too.

 

[bassman blue]

Sounds good in my Boogie Walkabout Scout cabinet too.

that's great, i'd like to see mesa's reaction to that

 

[Mike Shevlin]

Hey Mike! I look forward to it. Will and I were thinking about heading out there, but I think we both ran out of 'gear-itis' a bit this year. I'll look forward to hearing about the 'good, the bad, and the ugly'!

I'm off in 20 minutes... ROAD TRIP!

I will be merciless~

 

[Mastermold]

Sounds good in my Boogie Walkabout Scout cabinet too.

HA! That's kinda cool actually!

 

[Red Planet]

Interesting the comments about the Shuttle 6.0 not being as massive as some of the XYZ amps. Never played the 6.0 so cant go there but one side of the Shuttle Max 12.0 into a 4 ohm cab is twice as powerful as an LMIII into same cab. Pretty sure the 12.0 has two of the same power sections as one of the 6.0's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the power sections. It would take four LMIII's to keep up with an SM 12.0. Go figure.


On my LMIII and TA-501 the over emphasized low end sounds good but makes it run out of steam early on. I think that is where the perceived volume difference is. Loud till you really need to push it, then where did the rest of it go? That whole Cut only Low End control on the MB amps baffle me. Why have the boost if the amp can not perform at that level?

And if you really need massive Power next to a Boogie (any Boogie) just plug two 4 ohm cabs into a Shuttle Max 12.0 and put that tail tween them legs. The when your done, pickup your feather weight 1200 watt amp and take it lovingly home and leave the backache to the Mesa guy.

 

[jnewmark]

Interesting the comments about the Shuttle 6.0 not being as massive as some of the XYZ amps. Never played the 6.0 so cant go there but one side of the Shuttle Max 12.0 into a 4 ohm cab is twice as powerful as an LMIII into same cab. Pretty sure the 12.0 has two of the same power sections as one of the 6.0's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the power sections. It would take four LMIII's to keep up with an SM 12.0. Go figure.


On my LMIII and TA-501 the over emphasized low end sounds good but makes it run out of steam early on. I think that is where the perceived volume difference is. Loud till you really need to push it, then where did the rest of it go? That whole Cut only Low End control on the MB amps baffle me. Why have the boost if the amp can not perform at that level?

And if you really need massive Power next to a Boogie (any Boogie) just plug two 4 ohm cabs into a Shuttle Max 12.0 and put that tail tween them legs. The when your done, pickup your feather weight 1200 watt amp and take it lovingly home and leave the backache to the Mesa guy.

Red, since you will be getting a 9.0 soon, you may or may not will be able to hear what some of us perceive as the MarkBass heads sounding louder than the GB heads, even though not as powerful. Since I don't have to get that loud on my gigs anyway, it could indeed be just a perception on my part, but I have owned both the 6.0 and the 9.0 and they did not seem as loud at lower volume than my F1, or as chunky. Believe me, I AB'd those heads to death in 3 different cabs, and it seemed that I always favored the F1 as getting more of what I needed at a lower overall volume. Things may be different when you crank it up passed noon, but I never have to get in that region so I guess I'll never find out.

 

[12bass]

... Believe me, I AB'd those heads to death in 3 different cabs, and it seemed that I always favored the F1 as getting more of what I needed at a lower overall volume. Things may be different when you crank it up passed noon, but I never have to get in that region so I guess I'll never find out.

I'm puzzled. Perhaps you might help clear something up, as I see these types of comments again and again. Are you comparing the volume by comparing how loud each amp gets at a given volume knob position, like, say, 1/2 way up?

If so, then given that the gain structure of the amps is likely to be different, this is not going to be a very useful comparison of output power. One amp might reach its power limit at "only" 1/3 volume because its gain structure is set "hot", while another might require 3/4 before it starts to hit the limiter because it is set "cool" for extra headroom.

Basically, the position of the knobs is not a relevant indicator of how loud an amp can get. Thus, and I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here, the only sensible way to compare amps it to run both right into the limiter, wherever that might be on the controls.

 

[bunny10]

I'm puzzled. Perhaps you might help clear something up, as I see these types of comments again and again. Are you comparing the volume by comparing how loud each amp gets at a given volume knob position, like, say, 1/2 way up?

If so, then given that the gain structure of the amps is likely to be different, this is not going to be a very useful comparison of output power. One amp might reach its power limit at "only" 1/3 volume because its gain structure is set "hot", while another might require 3/4 before it starts to hit the limiter because it is set "cool" for extra headroom.

Basically, the position of the knobs is not a relevant indicator of how loud an amp can get. Thus, and I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here, the only sensible way to compare amps it to run both right into the limiter, wherever that might be on the controls.

IMHO !!! Please don't confuse the discussion with facts. It's not fair.

 

[Red Planet]

Red, since you will be getting a 9.0 soon, you may or may not will be able to hear what some of us perceive as the MarkBass heads sounding louder than the GB heads, even though not as powerful. Since I don't have to get that loud on my gigs anyway, it could indeed be just a perception on my part, but I have owned both the 6.0 and the 9.0 and they did not seem as loud at lower volume than my F1, or as chunky. Believe me, I AB'd those heads to death in 3 different cabs, and it seemed that I always favored the F1 as getting more of what I needed at a lower overall volume. Things may be different when you crank it up passed noon, but I never have to get in that region so I guess I'll never find out.

I think it's where the things are set up flat comparatively. They are set different no doubt. That tends to be a perceived performance difference. If you dial them in equally I think you start to realise there is not much difference as first impressed.

I noticed this same kind of difference between the MarkBass little amps and the bigger units. The EQ's are not set up similar at all. Yes you can get them both flat but if you have found a sweet spot with one or the other and try to reach for that with a different model, you can but there is much more thought involved than just twisting a knob. For me I had to figure out what each mark represented on the Variable Q's before I could boost a certain Frequency that I had been boosting on my LMIII. This difference at first had me thinking the LMIII had more wallop but it did not. It was a perception but after a great deal of thought not a reality.

And yes the Gain Structures are different animals on the Genz Heads. Way more control.


I like all these little lightweight heads soooooo much and enjoy playing them all.

 

[jnewmark]

I'm puzzled. Perhaps you might help clear something up, as I see these types of comments again and again. Are you comparing the volume by comparing how loud each amp gets at a given volume knob position, like, say, 1/2 way up?

If so, then given that the gain structure of the amps is likely to be different, this is not going to be a very useful comparison of output power. One amp might reach its power limit at "only" 1/3 volume because its gain structure is set "hot", while another might require 3/4 before it starts to hit the limiter because it is set "cool" for extra headroom.

Basically, the position of the knobs is not a relevant indicator of how loud an amp can get. Thus, and I hope I'm not pointing out the obvious here, the only sensible way to compare amps it to run both right into the limiter, wherever that might be on the controls.

Undoubtedly what you say is true, and the subject of loudness vs. power/watts gets talked about alot here. But, as I stated above, this is just a PERCEPTION of mine ( and obviously some others ), not a scientific fact. On the other hand, it seems kind of crazy to me that I should have to turn a 900 watt amp up to 3 o'clock to get the same PERCEIVED loudness I get with a 500 watt amp at noon.

 

[agedhorse]

Undoubtedly what you say is true, and the subject of loudness vs. power/watts gets talked about alot here. But, as I stated above, this is just a PERCEPTION of mine ( and obviously some others ), not a scientific fact. On the other hand, it seems kind of crazy to me that I should have to turn a 900 watt amp up to 3 o'clock to get the same PERCEIVED loudness I get with a 500 watt amp at noon.

Before this misunderstanding goes any farther, please let me explain a little bit about gain structure, knob positions and general comparisons between amps of different manufacturers as well as different models from the same manufacturer.

1. Knob position has absolutely nothing to do with the power of an amp. It merely controls the level of the signal path before the power amplifier.

2. The knob position(s) for rated power is chosen by the designer (me in the case of the Genz Benz products) to give the user the best set of tradeoffs between range of control to accomodate the wide range of instruments and pickups on the market. If, for example we made the preamp controls deliver full power at a knob setting of "1" for example, then the amp would not be very useable at lower power because there would be inadequate control between "0" and "1".

3. There are also different control tapers that we choose to enhance this feel and control, to give smooth volume adjustment from low to high, since the perceived volume contains a log (non-linear) function (due to the square of the voltage in the power equation) as well as the non-linear sensitivity perception of the ear at lower volumes.

4. Comparing amps at the same knob position and saying one amp has more power is a worthless comparison. The gains must be normalized for the same acoustic volume, not knob position.

 

[Red Planet]

Undoubtedly what you say is true, and the subject of loudness vs. power/watts gets talked about alot here. But, as I stated above, this is just a PERCEPTION of mine ( and obviously some others ), not a scientific fact. On the other hand, it seems kind of crazy to me that I should have to turn a 900 watt amp up to 3 o'clock to get the same PERCEIVED loudness I get with a 500 watt amp at noon.

I agree with you and understand how you feel.

One thing I have noticed about my LMIII is the input is extremely sensitive (hot). With any of my passive Basses I can make the clip light come on with the level control set at the first click up (barely on). With the TA-501 I had to set the input level control at 12:00 to get the same results. This one minor difference can lead to a perceived performance difference. Add to that a slightly different EQ curve, different power amp limiter, different power amp, etc..... and the whole mixture can lead to a remarkable perception that can hardly be spelled out well unless the two said amps were placed on a scope with a tone generator and looked at. Get the amps performing equally then listen to them.

But then we don't play in laboratories through scopes do we? We want what works for us simple as that.

 

[agedhorse]

Undoubtedly what you say is true, and the subject of loudness vs. power/watts gets talked about alot here. But, as I stated above, this is just a PERCEPTION of mine ( and obviously some others ), not a scientific fact. On the other hand, it seems kind of crazy to me that I should have to turn a 900 watt amp up to 3 o'clock to get the same PERCEIVED loudness I get with a 500 watt amp at noon.

Not crazy at all. Loudness and knob position are unrelated across brands and even models.

One thing I have noticed about my LMIII is the input is extremely sensitive (hot). With any of my passive Basses I can make the clip light come on with the level control set at the first click up (barely on). With the TA-501 I had to set the input level control at 12:00 to get the same results. This one minor difference can lead to a perceived performance difference. Add to that a slightly different EQ curve, different power amp limiter, different power amp, etc..... and the whole mixture can lead to a remarkable perception that can hardly be spelled out well unless the two said amp were placed on a scope with a tone generator and looked at. Get the amps performing equally then listen to them.

This is correct.

Interesting the comments about the Shuttle 6.0 not being as massive as some of the XYZ amps. Never played the 6.0 so cant go there but one side of the Shuttle Max 12.0 into a 4 ohm cab is twice as powerful as an LMIII into same cab. Pretty sure the 12.0 has two of the same power sections as one of the 6.0's. Someone correct me if I'm wrong on the power sections. It would take four LMIII's to keep up with an SM 12.0. Go figure.


On my LMIII and TA-501 the over emphasized low end sounds good but makes it run out of steam early on. I think that is where the perceived volume difference is. Loud till you really need to push it, then where did the rest of it go? That whole Cut only Low End control on the MB amps baffle me. Why have the boost if the amp can not perform at that level?

And if you really need massive Power next to a Boogie (any Boogie) just plug two 4 ohm cabs into a Shuttle Max 12.0 and put that tail tween them legs. The when your done, pickup your feather weight 1200 watt amp and take it lovingly home and leave the backache to the Mesa guy.

This is also correct.

 

[12bass]

Undoubtedly what you say is true, and the subject of loudness vs. power/watts gets talked about alot here. But, as I stated above, this is just a PERCEPTION of mine ( and obviously some others ), not a scientific fact. On the other hand, it seems kind of crazy to me that I should have to turn a 900 watt amp up to 3 o'clock to get the same PERCEIVED loudness I get with a 500 watt amp at noon.

To be honest, I have no direct experience with the GB amps, so I cannot comment on absolute volume comparisons. However, what I've gathered is that, comparatively, Markbass amps tend to have more input gain, and thus sound relatively louder for a given setting of the volume knobs. Similarly, few Ampeg players are likely to go past 10:00 on a vintage SVT without risking permanent hearing loss.

What this really comes down to is that most of the usable volume adjustment on these amps is concentrated in the first 1/3 - 1/2 of the volume knob's rotation, while other amps, like the GBs, simply use more of the knob's travel. Sure, it makes the amp seem subjectively louder "Hey! It's bone crushing, and it's only at 9:00!", but it doesn't actually impact absolute volume potential whatsoever.

 

[Red Planet]

Before this misunderstanding goes any farther, please let me explain a little bit about gain structure, knob positions and general comparisons between amps of different manufacturers as well as different models from the same manufacturer.

1. Knob position has absolutely nothing to do with the power of an amp. It merely controls the level of the signal path before the power amplifier.

2. The knob position(s) for rated power is chosen by the designer (me in the case of the Genz Benz products) to give the user the best set of tradeoffs between range of control to accomodate the wide range of instruments and pickups on the market. If, for example we made the preamp controls deliver full power at a knob setting of "1" for example, then the amp would not be very useable at lower power because there would be inadequate control between "0" and "1".

3. There are also different control tapers that we choose to enhance this feel and control, to give smooth volume adjustment from low to high, since the perceived volume contains a log (non-linear) function (due to the square of the voltage in the power equation) as well as the non-linear sensitivity perception of the ear at lower volumes.

4. Comparing amps at the same knob position and saying one amp has more power is a worthless comparison. The gains must be normalized for the same acoustic volume, not knob position.

Agreed for anyone that wants delve into this subject do a search on gain matching. Man look at some of the older threads where Jim Bergantino and Bob Lee are squaring off.

The whole Crest CA-9 hot gain debate. For some there will allways be a plus to having that and for others there will not.

I finally had to conceed Bob Lee is right. And then discovered a QSC PLX2 1804 will beat the britches off a CA-9 and only weighs 13 pounds.

 

[Matt Dean]

that's great, i'd like to see mesa's reaction to that

I don't think Mesa would be worried...